Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East podcast. This podcast relates the realities of Arab women and their rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East. Season five is a collaboration between MUA and Women of the Middle East Podcast, as we will be discussing MU's latest book, justice and Beauty in Muslim Health towards egalitarian ethics and laws published by One World Academic in December of 2022. My name is Am Malki. I'm a feminist scholar and an educator. This is Women of the Middle East Podcast. Hello and welcome to season five of Women of the Middle East podcast. This season is dedicated to the groundbreaking book, justice and Beauty and Muslim marriage. In this episode, we go through section two of the book, lessons from the Prophet. This section is made up of three chapters.
Speaker 0 00:00:54 The authors of these interrelated chapters tap into the prophetic teachings, proposing a new paradigm for looking at contemporary spousal relationships based on justice and equality and Muslim families. In addition to reading these teachings in relation to the context we are living in and forming our contemporary realities, the first chapter in this section forwards Proof Prophet Mohamed and Hadid's Marriage as the ideal archetype of Muslim marriages. The second chapter supports it with Hadid, uh, reports, and the third section applies Ponic ethics to interpret these Hadids. I'm delighted to be chatting today with the authors of the first chapter, reclaiming Kadija and Mohamed's marriage as an Islamic paradigm towards an a new history of the Muslim present. Today we have with us Dr. Sara Anik and Dr. Shaab Ou. Lovely to have you both.
Speaker 1 00:01:51 Thank you.
Speaker 0 00:01:52 I would like to begin by asking both of you about your role, uh, and contribution to this complex yet important project.
Speaker 1 00:02:00 Okay. I can, I can start. So I think what really spoke to us about <unk> and Mohamed's marriage was that it spoke to our own realities. Um, we relate to each other as equals. We met each other while doing our PhDs. Sarah is about four years older than me, so she was finishing her PhD when I started mine, and she always wanted to to Jordan. Um, and so I moved to Jordan for love, uh, and uh, I moved there for nine years. So this us was a historical relationship that we could relate to, and that's really what got the ball rolling and enticed us to learn more about that history.
Speaker 0 00:02:44 Sarah, what do you think, what was, uh, the most that attracted you to this project? Besides what Shada, of course said,
Speaker 2 00:02:52 I mean, I think the, um, the problem is that in a lot of Muslim societies and uh, is that there we have this traditional, we call it traditional, we call it Islamic model, where, um, you, you know, men are told we can't get married until they are able to provide. Um, there's this idea that you should marry somebody who's older than you, the woman, and there's this kind of very hierarchical setting. And then actually, if you think about it in terms of Islam, we see that that is not a reality at all. We also have taboo against kind of, uh, people, remarrying people. You know, we have a taboo against divorce and we, when we look at the early Islamic period, we see that most of the <inaudible> were married constantly. I mean, they all married each other and we don't know this. So when we think about these taboos, in fact, they're actually very Western tabs and they actually have nothing very, very little taboo with our, with our, um, and our Islamic heritage. We really wanted to question that perception because especially in societies that claim to be Islamic, when these perceptions actually have very little, very few roots in Islamic history.
Speaker 0 00:04:08 Yeah, no, I agree with you. And, and this is exactly what you do in your chapter now, your focus on Hadit is a shift in methodology, right? From previous studies of Islamic feminists where many have avoided engaging with Hadit, um, and instead granted their um, uh, argument on the Quran itself. How and when did this shift take place in your, um, in your opinion?
Speaker 2 00:04:32 So you're absolutely right. Uh, early Muslim feminists have basically said, look, we have a reality. And in this reality we have so-called laws that we think are based on Islam. And actually when you look at them, they are the laws of man. And I'm saying, man, and as in men, right? Uh, mostly <unk> <unk> when they have spoken to them, they've written have not necessarily gone back toran or to the hadif. That has been one of the main kind of critiques for Muslim feminists to say, actually, why should we trust the work? Certain men at a certain time, we can go back to <unk> and <unk> is, is just, and so a lot of work has been done around that. There have been critiques c hadid of, because they were written down 200 years later, uh, under circumstances. And there has been a lot of, again, critique of the way that these hadid have been written down that the way that certain hadit were actually in direct contradiction to the Quran.
Speaker 2 00:05:33 But I think that to mean as Muslims, we still, we still respect that Hadi, and there's actually quite a bit in there. Um, that is very helpful. And when it does not contradict the Quran, I think that we should look at them. But, and the, and the, and the important thing is that when those hadk, and this is something we say in the chapter that under Jordanian personal status law, which is supposedly quote unquote based onk prophet <unk>, if they had lived today, if Khadija's guardian had said, I don't want to get them, I don't want them to marry because they're not compatible financially, they could, they could avoided their marriage. So what does that say without that, you know, understanding that we have a shk when even according to the sun that everyone agrees on, uh, it contradicts. So I think that the spirit of what Muslim feminists have done, which is basically said, wait, what are we saying is Islamic who has actually said this? And let us go back to the most important things, which of course we put on and combines, but then also look at, we can also look at other forces. And when, again, when they don't contradict the Quran, I think we should absolutely look at them.
Speaker 1 00:06:47 And just to add on to that, um, to clarify what we're doing is looking at the c r right biography and not Hadid per se is looking at Hadid. So we're looking at prophetic narratives from iHawk, uh, but also IAD and the literature we're looking at, um, I k Abuja. Um, and so we're looking at that literature and the idea is not to shift away from the horran and focus on post Quranic texts, extra chronic texts, but rather to build on what the first generation of feminists did in their rereading of the horran in the light of gender justice and to explore other text traditions, in this case the seal in other cases <unk> Islamic law, but also mystical tradition. And the idea is to really understand that if we want to change realities on the ground, we have to engage all of the traditions within Aran framework because these traditions hold legitimacy amongst Muslim communities On the ground, you
Speaker 0 00:07:50 Used the example of Khian prophet's, uh, relationship to deconstruct the dominant narrative and, uh, histories of Islamic marriage and reconstruct one that is based on justice, love, and equality, and specifically focusing on two snapshots from their marriage. Can you tell us more about those two examples or,
Speaker 1 00:08:10 Yeah, so what's really interesting is in this history we have these two snapshots, first of the marriage and second of ha's presence during the first chronic revelations. And I think that's a real challenge because you have to reconstruct a history based on just two snapshots. And yet even those two snapshots tell us so much about the profoundly non hedonic, uh, relationship. Um, and so just to give you a, a taste the teaser of the first snapshot, what we have is a woman who is very successful inside in his biographical dictionary of early Muslim women, says that Hajas caravan was the equivalent of the entire caravan declaration. We have someone who brought three children into her marriage with Mohamed, who was in two previous marriages, one marriage that died, another marriage. Uh, they were divorced and she was the one who proposed to the prophet. The prophet was actually the passive partner in this. She approached him and in biographical literature from, we actually have the wording of her proposal. So what we are seeing is something very different from what we are exposed to today in which the man is the active partner, the powerful player, and the woman is passively acted upon. So this is all to say that just from these two small snapshots, we see so much that points to very alternative configurations of a macro couple coming together.
Speaker 2 00:09:40 And also what is interesting is that when you look at the sources of the CI sources, we see that the early sources actually have no problem with this. They don't have a problem with the fact that Kadija was married before. They don't have a problem. The fact she had children, they don't have a problem with the fact that she was the one who proposed. It's today's sources that want to erase, that they want her to be a virgin, they want her, they want her to swap working. So there's, you know, uh, <inaudible> contemporary scholar has this whole kind of spiel about how she kind of, after they got married, she stopped and she put her whole energy and her creative energy into the household and making it nice. So it's a very kind of oi understanding. Know the father who works and the mother who stays at home and is, and of course it's none of that is in the early sources.
Speaker 2 00:10:33 So, so what we see is actually the problem is with today's modern sensibilities, it is our modernity that is so conservative that for us, this is iconic. Oh my God, what she proposed to him, she was, you know, still working. She's the one who actually supported. And of course, again, this is deeply connected to how our person sense laws, our family laws have been conceptualized. The whole concept of the family laws that is based on power and <inaudible> obedience and, and maintenance is based on the fact women live in the husband's house and that the husbands survive. And therefore women have to obey. I mean, the second snapshot snapshot is about early revelation. So how, how the prophet received, um, the Quran and how he felt at that time. And he was actually extremely, and we know this again as children, we learned this in first wave.
Speaker 2 00:11:27 You know, we learned how he was scared. He ran to Sadia. He said, Zini, cover me up. Cover me up. And we know all that. We know she was the first Muslim, the first Muslim, but we know that. Um, but we don't think about it. We don't think about how actually it was marriage with such a strong person who enabled the prophet to realize he was a prophet. And, and it was within that marriage at that was able to, to blossom and to to, to, to, to develop. We also don't as much, uh, that actually was extremely, extremely. It wasn't just at the beginning that he was, he was a little long period. He was extremely worried about losing his mind, about being, you know, being crazy that he actually contemplated own life. And again, the urban sources speak about that, of course, for us to say that it almost, no, not like we were religious saying something, but, so there was also vulnerability in the prophet.
Speaker 2 00:12:32 And I think this is important, true. And again, it's important from our current, I wanna say capitalist structure, where all of us men and women have to be the perfect, almost God, not even human. Cuz we cannot make mistakes. You know, we have to be per, we have to be perfect father provider. We have to do so much that we actually can't. And actually, when we go back to <inaudible> and to the cinema, we see that the prophets were humans. They made mistakes. That is what they, that is what humanity means. And that vulnerability, okay, it's okay to be wonderful, but in, in modern masculinity terms, it's not okay to be vulnerable. And I think that's very important to, to learn that and to say no, no saying no to this kind of, um, force perfection that is, that breaks us. Nobody expects from us as humans and actually being vulnerable, being vulnerable of course to God, but also being vulnerable in marriage. And that marriage allows for this vulnerability and allows for two people to support each other and not in their perfection. Not because they're maintaining each other and they're, I not providing whatever, you know, a sexual favor is <inaudible>. That it is something that is a, it is a vulnerable relationship and it allows for us to be human. And it strengthens us. It allows us to be stronger, but it's okay to be vulnerable in it.
Speaker 1 00:14:00 And the sources are very clear that the prophet was profoundly vulnerable, like in the biography of a, the prophet contemplate destroy himself over the crags, uh, over the mountain because he doesn't want to be called a madman by his beloved tribe. So of course, we can't verify if he was suicidal or not, but we know two things. Number one, there are narratives of it in authoritative biographical forces. And number two, the historians don't have a problem with it. They don't feel the need to compensate and say no, but the prophet was a real man. They, they don't feel the need. They're comfortable with that. And Kadija went, you went after her and said, who was there to caption when he fell? She went up to <unk>. Her Christian cousin knew the scripture very well, who verified. She had the famous narrative of sit on my lap to verify, is this an <inaudible> or is this Jin? Right? And what's very important is a lot of folks critique kja by saying, yeah, Butk represents the pre-Islamic period and I represents the Islamic period. And our response to this, their life was a 25 year relationship, but a law gave us two snapshots, a snapshot of their marriage and a snapshot of revelation, first Quran revelation. I think that there is great wisdom, hema, in that, that of the two snapshots, one of them fundamentally connects khadija to the Quran revelation. And I think that really should shake then how we understand revelation.
Speaker 0 00:15:35 Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's beautiful Khadija and Mohamed's relationship not only challenges the notion of a male provider and dependent, uh, wife, but offers an alternative model for a marital, uh, relationship built on mutual care, support and love, as you said. Uh, but Dr. Shada, your work counteracts and invalidates an establish discourse on marriage based on men's priority and females inferiority. This says volumes about historical facts and framings, right? And you hear reclaim sidelines or maybe intentionally excluded past that would have had a different power dynamic relation between men and woman within, you know, the family, uh, construct. Are we able to rewrite history?
Speaker 1 00:16:20 That's a great question. Ill sort of give you thoughts in that love, Dr. How jump in? So one of the methods that we're using is called a history of the present. And this comes from very important philosopher Michelle Fuko. And he basically argues the history of the present is a way of critiquing the present by a way of exploring alternative path. So the ideas that history writing in and of itself is a political project. We are presented to important narrative of history that legitimates the status quo. And so history can be something very subversive and empowering and liberating because when we look through sources, we can see very different paths that in turn will not only challenge the present status quo, but show us different ways of reconfiguring that status quo in a way that is more inclusive to different voices and experiences. And that's what we're trying to do with this history. This is a history of the present because it's a history that allows us to not only critique the present, but to change that present. Well, and this
Speaker 2 00:17:20 Is important, it's important to also recognize history as political. What we remember, how we remember it is political. So when we say, oh, look at the Romans, they were always patriarchal. The father could kill anyone in his peaceful. This is right as the father of a family to kill the slaves, to kill the children, to kill the, that was his right. And of course, what does that mean when we remember this history and we don't remember histories that were matriarchal or egalitarian for. What he does is it says that when we have a patriarchal present that is natural, that is normal, it's always patriarchal and will stay patriarchal at the core of remembering his views a political act and to recognize that they, even we political what the state is quo political, we're doing political too. But to kind of say that from the get to, yes, we are looking at histories that were silenced and we're looking at those and saying, once we kind of bring them into the picture, how does our understanding of today change? What does that mean for today? If we, if all of a sudden we all these other histories that we never knew about, how can we be different today in our present? And so that's, that's kind of the methodology that we use and it's extremely important, uh, in order to fight current injustice, injustice to kind of say, well, let's recognize the politics in these methods that are seen apolitical,
Speaker 0 00:18:43 Definitely. But what needs to be done to mainstream this paradigm and replace the old one that has been a part of not only the legal systems in our part of the world, but also the popular memory of of Muslims around the world. What, what do you think we could do?
Speaker 2 00:18:59 I mean, I think one thing is it, this is this story. It's not uh, it's not like this hidden little story. Every child grows up learning about taisha. We know we as Muslims, we love her, we know her. We, we, the problem is that that has not then changed into a paradigm, into a norm, into something that we can look at. So I think in a, in one way it's actually not that hard. I keep emphasizing this understanding that this is hegemonic. What I mean with hegemonic is it's, it's, it's, it is what everyone believes in, but it's, the roots are actually western modern modernity and conservative modernism. So it is about the <inaudible> family and the story of provider in the, and which by the way, even in western societies was never the case. It's just, it's just a image that was given. The majority of women globally have always worked. The majority of workers have always been women. So this idea of a woman who've been taken care of is actually the experience of a minority of women cross history.
Speaker 1 00:20:03 So just to add on to that, it's very important for us to make these arguments from gender equality, uh, and egalitarian relationships from within an Islam framework. And when we do that by excavating Islamic history, we legitimate what we're saying. We can't be written off as, oh, this is just un project or a Western secular project. No, when we make a statement about divorce not being a taboo, and we say actually, if you look at not only haja, but if you look at almost all of the prophets wives, with the exception of Aja, they all had prior relationships in prior marriages. And many of theba came into those relationships to the prophet peace be upon him with children, aye shall once posted that she was the only wife of the prophet who was a virgin. So it means she was the exception, she wasn't the norm. And when we challenge these types of taboos, I mean <unk> throughout her life <unk> was <unk> the first child that she had with her first husband and <unk> remained as her 25 year marriage to the prophet. When we make these arguments challenging taboo of divorced women from that type of Muslim history, who can challenge you, right? Anyone who takes that, that religion seriously cannot really challenge you.
Speaker 2 00:21:25 And especially that. Now of course a lot of injustice is being done against women who are either divorced or the widows who if they want to remarry, they will have to give up their children. Their children cannot be with them in, in a new household. So you as a woman are being told, you know, either you, you stay unmarried or you lose your children. And that's a terrible situation to put to put women. And this is a predicament of thousands of women, Muslims, the world. There is no tab in Islam around divorce.
Speaker 0 00:21:56 Dr. Sad, you've researched actually Muslim family laws and um, as you know, in the MENA region, the legal system, um, uh, and personal status laws and specific continue to be major obstacles, uh, towards women's rights. What are examples? I know you've mentioned a couple of examples now, but what are other examples in which current family laws or practices contradict the model, uh, of marriage proposed by Kadija and Mohamed? Uh, despite, you know, claims that those, uh, legal, um, uh, models are inspired by the Koran?
Speaker 2 00:22:29 So I think the most important one is, uh, this whole idea that I already mentioned of, uh, Kalam. So, uh, the idea that men are providers have to be providers and that, uh, and therefore women, uh, has to be <inaudible>, uh, which means that men can say you're not allowed to work. Uh, you're, you know, you're not allowed to leave the house, et cetera. So this is the most important thing cuz it's actually at the core, it's at the core of Muslim family law. And that's extremely problematic because it immediately creates a hierarchical relationship that is based on provision. So this is, I think, the most important thing that we need to remember that this whole idea of human provider and cause you're a provider, you are in charge and it's not put on either. It's not, you know, that because you provide it means you can, you can control, but it's also not <unk> of course. And I think that's the most important thing cause it's the root of the, of the inequality within marriage.
Speaker 0 00:23:24 Definitely I think <unk> and the guardianship are the two basic components. All marriages in Islam have been, um, built upon. And, and this type of research really provides an alternative model, alternative narrative that again, I go back and say, we need to work on mainstreaming it. If we cannot replace the old old one, let's offer this as an alternative. Now this question is for both you speak of how certain masculinities understandings of what it means to be in man at a certain time and place are valued more than other, uh, types and forms and how, uh, these masculinities themselves as well as their, um, evaluation changes over time and context. Then you forward a new framework, which is feminist masculinity. I'm very, very interested in that. How do you conceptualize the concept of feminist masculinity?
Speaker 1 00:24:18 So I think first of all, the idea is to understand masculinity is something that is productive, right? Not something that is, oh this is polemical, this is a problem, let's get rid of it. Masculinity is a reality. The question is how can we reshape it so that it can actually not only exist within, but support an egalitarian relationship. We used a very straightforward definition, what it means to be a particular time in a particular place. And so accent context of the definition is important because it means that masculinity is not one thing, it's shaped by a particular social setting and therefore it can be reshaped for different social settings. And when we look at the type of masculinity that was not only cultivated but flourished in this 25 year monogamous marriage, I think we can see something that can be very inspirational and harmonious for 20 century Muslim marriages in which both the husband and the wife are working.
Speaker 1 00:25:14 And in many cases, the wife is the primary earner and in many cases the sole earner of the family. If we look at the historical records, we don't see any examples of marital discomfort between Mohamed and Khadija in that time. On the contrary, after Khadija passed away during, at the end of the mein boycott in arm huen in the year of sorrow, the prophet continuously praised khadija for everything she had done for the community to the extent that his later lives. It became a point of friction because he kept on talking about her in such glowing ways, right? So what we can see, what we can glean from the sources is someone who was very comfortable in that marriage. And I think that's very important because he did not feel threatened, he did not feel insecure because of the economic strength of his life, the social capital of his wife.
Speaker 1 00:26:04 On the contrary, he saw it as a win-win, a win for her and a win for him. So it wasn't me versus you, it was something much more reciprocal. It was us, it was a couple, it was a community. And if we can take that seriously as a part of me sunna, I think that's gonna shape help a lot of marital in which a man can no longer be a man with the cost of living in today's society. Hegemonic masculinity is a fiction. No man can live up to that and just hand out, uh, you know, the money in that. It doesn't work that way. So in many ways, feminist masculinity and masculinity or egalitarian relationships is more in touch with the real realities on the ground in which both have to provide in order for household to actually survive.
Speaker 2 00:26:52 But it's, I think this, and, and again, this goes back to our current value system. We're basically, we are saying of course, as Muslims, we are guilty of this. We as Muslims imagine our prophet to be a rich man. So we have a very classicist understanding of stone. So we are told in <unk> to feel with the poor. So what, so Muslims are rich and so the rich are Muslims and so all the millions and poor Muslims who are, what, who are they interesting for to deal with themselves. So we have a very rich sense point of view. And of course current masculine was like this, you and we see it in our, in Hollywood movies and Bollywood, all these movies were you are a man if you are rich. And you know, we see how people's creeps, you know, workers, you know, look down for them.
Speaker 2 00:27:42 And, but also in the family. And I think actually if you look at uh, this, the story, it's about provision to enable. And this is of course, again, this is not a mainstream, this is a very extremely rich example. I mean, uh, example, the, the wealth that <inaudible> had is extreme, right? So, but she did not use that wealth to become some she did, she wasn't good cause she was rich and she didn't use that mean to, to kind of put herself on top and say, I'm the boss, I decide. And you no, it actually enabled marriage to be, to be a good marriage. But then also that that means that your value doesn't derive from that and that you have to help because of course this, we're not saying, we're not saying, oh, you know, men should be providers, women should be providers. No, nobody actually realistically can be the current situations both are working very barely able to provide, but it's taking, it's divorcing provision from value and from saying it isn't, you don't get value just cuz you're able to provide, uh, and in the family together you are able to, to, to create something is divorced, how much you create in terms of money.
Speaker 1 00:29:01 And just to quickly add onto that, back to what Dr was saying about vulnerability, right? The prophet was vulnerable and the classical historians had no problem with that. There are various, uh, narratives that talk about the prophet not being able to pay for the Maha for the dowry that Gabriel comes down with jewels Maha and none of the pre-modern scholars have a problem with that. Whereas I have read modern biography with the prophet by select Muslims who are uncomfortable with that. They cover that up and they say things along the lines of the profit paid X number of chi camels in, in the diary when none of the classical sources show that, right? So it's also, it's not just material wealth, it's about vulnerability. Again, the marriage, the proposal, the prophet was clearly a very shy person. We imagined the cal, the prophet as a califf, but he, but he wasn't a Caleb, he was a very soft spoken person.
Speaker 1 00:29:55 And I think the prophet can be a window to understand the earlier prophet and to reread the earlier prophet in the light of that non hegemonic masculinity, we know that prophet Musa was very uncomfortable going into different island because he had a lisk when he spoke, right? That is not hegemonic by any standard and that's why he the law to open the knot in his stone, right? Again, when we situate this nondramatic masculinity within Islamic framework, we not only critique hetero demotic masculinity, but we legitimate otherwise of, of being a man that is healthier in a broader community. Absolutely.
Speaker 0 00:30:31 Beautiful. Now the other two chapters in this section of the book built on yours, um, can, uh, you outline the, the threads of connection and your reflection on how these threads solidify, uh, the argument of the alternative paradigm, your for forwarding? I
Speaker 2 00:30:47 Mean, I think the, I mean if we start with, um, <unk> a chapter in in the sense that absolutely, I mean, what, what can we do? How, what is important to people and how can they use, and this is something every Muslim can do. Every, every one of us can go to <unk> and through <unk> as a direct relationship to God, we can, you know, we we're, we're allow, we we have the tools. And so it is an extremely important tool and it's an extremely important tool. And actually despite the way that we read, you know, the very patriarchal way we have closed in our meetings, there is still gender egalitarian, a lot of gender egalitarian, uh, messaging in those forces that are, you know, that that we can use. And I think with am means chapter, how do we do this then I think that the three chapters work together in saying this is one example.
Speaker 2 00:31:45 Uh, but, you know, ethics is very important. Like where, where this, this ethics is there, it's, it's <unk> we believe in it, but we have normalized, and this is of course injustice. The way it works is that you normalize it by othering people. You make you, you believe that everyone is equal, but yet you have no problem down to your, you know, your, um, housekeeper at home. These ethics are extremely important. Bringing these ethics back and saying, no, you cannot justify injustice. Keeping that there and doing a lot of people do this <inaudible>, but also losing the rich sources that we have, uh, through the cedar. And the, he
Speaker 1 00:32:30 Is fundamental it isamu law who's understood as the word of a law. And so it doesn't have to be prioritized, but the text also has a lot of silences and it is very broad in its discourse. Can you paint a painting with the Quran? I don't know. I think you can have the foundations of a painting. I think you can have the foundational ethical sketch that you need, but to participate in the process of painting, you need something more granular and detailed. And I think the specificity of si narratives, the <unk>, the legal angles of fifth, I think this allows us to collectively come together and to really paint something can be different that can speak to our reality and can still be true to Quran and to a law, right? So I think that the Hadi offers us something very, very specific. And again, it allows us to speak to what really matters to a lot of Muslims on the ground as much as Muslims love to work on the Hadi the Fifth, all part of the theme, you know?
Speaker 1 00:33:32 So I think it has to be engaged if we change realities on the ground. Just to add one more point, it's important not to essentialize the literature that one campus. Oh it is, that's the way. And we're saying no, it ain't feminist. And that's the way what we have in any literature is a collection of contesting, even contradictory voices. So the question we are asking why is one strand, one voice elevated to the level of paradigm and we don't even know about the other. So it's really a battle over from memory of our past as Muslims as a community. And the idea is to say, look, if another strand speaks to our realities in a better way, let's elevate that straw so that we can be true to the message of the Quran to the original sketch, right? So it allows us to paint a picture that contests another painting that excludes so many painters.
Speaker 0 00:34:25 We all need to collectively, uh, promote such an alternative, uh, model. One that is indeed based on the prophet's, uh, piece p upon him live, uh, that shows him in the right light, uh, that promotes justice, equality, uh, love, um, dignity. As Dr. Asara said, you know, this is something that we all learned really early on in our lives, this, um, marriage, this very unique marriage. But it's, it's not still yet, it's not part of how we perceive marriages in Islam, unfortunately, as if it's the, uh, exception rather than the norm. So how do we make that the norm? We need to revisit, I think, our educational curricula, but also we need to, um, mainstream it through media, through culture. Um, and, and again, you leave me with, with many ideas. Um, is there anything else you wanna say to conclude this discussion?
Speaker 1 00:35:28 I just wanna add that, um, and this goes back to how you began the interview. You asked us about the first generation of feminist scholars in Islam who are focusing on the Quran and we're branching out into the sunna in general and vasera the prophetic biography literature in particular, but we're also doing something that's very similar to what the first generation was doing. First generation was not just focusing on the Quran, they were saying that <unk> has been dominated by men. And as a result of that, men's experiences have been foregrounded at the expense of women's experiences, challenges, and issues. And we're saying the exact same thing that women need to take their rightful place in interpreting not only the Huan, but the Suma in general and the prophetic biography in particular. And as long as men continue to dominate the interpretation of Sira, the interpretation of the law, the interpretation of school of fifth, the interpretation of the mystical tradition, we will not have egalitarian paradigms and models that we can try to emulate and live up to. And so a big part of this is saying we need to have women take their rightful place in intellectual circles, in mosque spaces so that they not only participate, but that they lead discussions and lead critical reflection and meaning making about the history of our faith. And that is what a history of the present is about. Because when women do that, present will not only be deconstructed, but we can reconstruct it together as feminist women and feminist men to produce a more just reality in the Muslim community.
Speaker 2 00:37:06 And here it's very important also kind of see women not as see differences between women and the, you know, work of Dr. Ou comes to mind here when she says, you know, how do you read the story of Haja? Who, who as Arabs we believe is our mother, uh, as single mother who's abandoned by her husband, but in the middle of a desert? And how does that kind of go to kind of single mothers today and how do you read that? And so having these different voices and people not just saying, oh, adults need women, we also need women who are not rich women, educated women. How are their experiences? How is them reading? What do they think is important? That that is what it means to say Islam is for all times and spaces and people. It means that we can all, it speaks to us, but we can also speak at our experience in our diversity, allows us to capture something that's very important to be able to hear that. Thank you.
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