Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast. This podcast relates the realities of Arab women and their rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East. Season five is a collaboration between MUA and Women of the Middle East Podcast, as we will be discussing MU's latest book, justice and Beauty in Muslim Health towards egalitarian ethics and laws published by One World Academic in December of 2022. My name is Am Malki. I'm a feminist scholar and an educator. This is Women of the Middle East Podcast. Hello and welcome to a Woman of the Middle East Podcast, season five, in which we go through the chapters of the recently published book, justice and Beauty and Muslim Marriage. In the previous episodes, we talked to authors who contributed to the first two sections of the book, reconstructing Marriage as a Constitution based on justice and beauty, compassion, equity through ethically based and holistic interpretations of the Koran and Hadif. Today we focus on section three, Islamic Legal Theory and Ethics, which consists of three chapters. These chapters focus on ethics and Islamic legal tradition in theory and practice proposing new approaches to interpretation that preserve principles and standards within tradition while addressing today's needs context and standards. I'm happy to have Dr. Navine Nada joining us to speak about her chapter in section three titled The Reform of and Marriage, a Spiritually Integrative Approach. Dr. Navine, lovely to have you.
Speaker 1 00:01:40 Thank you very much for inviting me. I'm delighted to be with you on this podcast.
Speaker 0 00:01:44 Thank you. Um, Dr. Navine, what attracted you to this project and what do you want to achieve from this project as both a scholar, a researcher, and a woman?
Speaker 1 00:01:54 Oh, that's a big question. So there are, there's a lot of things that attracted me, uh, to this project, but, um, as I'm sure, uh, you're aware there's a great need for justice within, uh, Muslim societies. Uh, we've seen it in the Arab Spring, you know, people are really crying out and calling for justice and without, um, justice, uh, in the institution of marriage, there really can't be any justice in society because that's the, the building block of any society. It's the first and most important of all human relationships. So if you don't develop that value of justice within that really, um, foremost human uh, relationship, you can, you, you're, you're not going to see it in the rest of society. So, uh, this is really one of the important things that, um, attracted me to this project. Uh, the importance of reintroducing justice, uh, within, um, the Muslim marriage, as you may be aware, as, uh, I think, I imagine, uh, some of the other contributors have, uh, spoken, uh, to, to the topic, uh, justice, uh, the marriage is conceptualized on the marriage, on the model of slavery, uh, within classical circle where you have, um, men providing money in return for, uh, women's sexual availability, which really isn't, um, a, a just, uh, construction of marriage.
Speaker 1 00:03:18 And so, uh, what I'm trying to do here is reconceptualize marriage, uh, in the form of, uh, something similar to a school, uh, for spiritual advancement where important values like fidelity and, uh, justice and compassion get instilled. Um, so, uh, people grow, uh, spiritually on their path to, to closeness to God. These are incredibly important for spiritual advancement, but also more generally for people's wellbeing and society. So that's really one of the important things that attracted me to this project. Historically, uh, much of our tradition has excluded the contr, the scholarly contributions and perspectives of women. Um, my particular, uh, area of expertise is koan, although I also work in, uh, ethical legal theory. Uh, but, but definitely when it comes to koranic studies, um, uh, tk ex Jesus, uh, you don't, I have not been able to find a single, uh, uh, woman ex a single mu between the two ayesha's, and that's Ayesha, the prophet Mohamed's wife. Uh, may God be pleased with her and, uh, the 20th century.
Speaker 1 00:04:36 So not a single woman. So that's a really strange lack, uh, and, uh, it's one of the reasons why our <unk> when it comes to women's issues is so unbalanced. And so, um, there's a huge gap between what the text is actually saying, uh, and between the interpretations that are attempted to be imposed upon them, uh, upon the text. So, uh, uh, one of the other things that really attracted me about this, uh, project is the opportunities that it provides for women's scholarly contributions and women's perspectives, uh, whi whi, which have historically been, uh, so marginalized and continue to be, uh, marginalized within, uh, the masculinist, uh, framework of, uh, Koran and f and a whole bunch of other disciplines.
Speaker 0 00:05:27 Absolutely. Um, in your chapter, you critically engage with traditional Islamic legal theory, uh, through an Islamic feminist spiritually, uh, integrative approach to, uh, that builds on an understanding of marriage as a site of spiritual growth, uh, that better fits the needs of our time and applies to our context right now in terms of marriage or divorce. How can we develop a modern Islamic legal theory that is authentic to the Koran central message, yet addresses the needs of today? Oh,
Speaker 1 00:06:01 Well, obviously there's a need for spirituality and justice, uh, today and all these, uh, beautiful values. Um, so what, what I do if, uh, if we wanna go in depth into, uh, the methodology that I'm proposing. So I'm, uh, looking at the four main, uh, os the four main principles and re-envisioning them and, uh, in ways that are more in keeping with, uh, the instructions and the directions and the teachings in the Quran. So, uh, the four principles that I'm suggesting are similar to the old ones, the classical ones. The first is, uh, Quran, obviously, although here too, there's a major change, and it has to do with, um, uh, insisting on closeness to the, um, literal meaning of the text. And, uh, instead of, um, interpretations that don't quite fit, but fit, uh, masculinist privilege. Uh, but also what's really very different here is the insistence on the importance of, uh, organization of the, of the text.
Speaker 1 00:07:06 So, understanding the structure of each sewer, um, and in understanding how each sewer builds on the one before, and, uh, uh, and understanding the importance and the rationale for the organization of the Koran. That's, uh, really, uh, the main contribution here. Uh, and then when it comes to the <unk>, uh, uh, I also look at it as a, uh, historical source where the example of the prophet and as a secondary source that we can use with, uh, uh, together with reason or with the Koran, but not as an independent, uh, source for ethical, illegal, uh, legislation. Uh, you know, uh, uh, certainly not, uh, in the sense of, uh, uh, revelation equal or over, above the Quran, as we see it sometimes used in, uh, ethical legal theory, um, classical ethical, legal theory. And then, um, the third is, uh, uh, <unk> or reason. And, uh, here too, I, I mean, I think we have some really fabulous, uh, uh, tools for, uh, doing ethical legal reasoning in the Islamic tradition.
Speaker 1 00:08:14 Uh, you know, like haben, you know, um, uh, you know, so many really excellent, uh, tools. Uh, what I'm adding here is a new one, uh, which also stems from the Koran because all of these theories, they stem from, uh, contemplating the Koran and thinking about the Koran. So I'm also adding a new one, and I'm calling it <unk>, which basically means seeking justice. And, uh, uh, what I do here is I look at the different terms that we have for justice in the Pooran, like cost and a, you know, equity, uh, looking at the vulnerabilities in, uh, uh, society, which is what Kusta does, and Alan, uh, words like pot fi and, uh, uh, ensuring that we actually have a working principle that we can, that we can use to ensure that we have justice within fil uh, which is re, you know, justice is really a value that's quite absent there, especially gender justice.
Speaker 1 00:09:11 And, uh, the fourth, uh, which is really the biggest change in, uh, the theory that I'm proposing. And, uh, it has to do with the consensus, or Ima and as, uh, you may be aware, it's the, it's a very important, uh, principle in the classical tradition. Uh, unfortunately, when you look at the Quran, uh, the, the only occurrences of ima in, in the same form, in the same route, um, are all negative. Uh, I mean, you have, uh, Noahs people coming to a consensus against him. You have Joseph's brothers coming to a consensus to throw him into a, well, you have pharaoh's magicians coming to a consensus against Pharaoh, against, uh, Moses. So in every instance, uh, consensus, that word doesn't occur positively. So I, I've, um, retained the deliberative and consultative aspect of, uh, Ima but, uh, re-envisioned it in the form of, uh, uh, shura, which is a, which means consultation.
Speaker 1 00:10:12 Um, uh, and that is very, uh, well represented in the Koran and positively represented in the Koran. Uh, so that's the biggest change, and it's also a lot more practical. And there are certain, uh, steps, uh, in contemporary fka the way FKA is done today with the collective, uh, uh, itch head, the collective deliberations that we see in the various different folk councils. Uh, so there are steps, uh, moving in that direction. Uh, so this is, uh, ba the basic framework, uh, that I'm using, uh, within my, um, paper to, uh, re-envision and, uh, reconceptualize and reform formula, uh, formulate, uh, the, the principles of, uh, ethical legal theory in Islam.
Speaker 0 00:11:01 And you formulate this, uh, framework, uh, you construct this framework through what you call a spiritually integrative approach. Could you tell us more about this approach and how you named it such a thing? Yeah, please.
Speaker 1 00:11:15 Sure. <laugh>. Yeah. So, um, spiritually, uh, integrative, uh, what it means is basically integrating the importance of spirituality. Again, it's connecting between <unk> and spiritual advancement. So, uh, within the Islamic experience of spirituality, uh, you find several stages that, uh, a solve a person or a soul goes through, uh, beginning withou, which is the insightful self, that insights about things, and moving on to the, uh, uh, the, uh, self-critical self, the self that takes responsibility for its own actions, uh, the ethical self. Uh, that's <unk>. And so, um, in any path to spiritual advancement, uh, ethics is, and, and, and good practices is incredibly important. So what I'm doing is I'm integrating fk back into that holistic view of, uh, human spirituality and human advancement. And, uh, it stems from also, uh, my work on, uh, structure of the Koran and style of the Koran, and how I see its sos, uh, organized where you have, uh, each sewer building on the other, and in, in, in contributing a very important, um, spiritual growing edge.
Speaker 1 00:12:36 Uh, uh, so, so it also stems from my research on the korans in interpretation, whether Koran is really a spiritual pathway or a spiritual method, um, that reads, uh, self from, uh, you know, the insightful self, all the way to the, uh, uh, you know, higher levels of, of, uh, the, the self. Uh, each and each zura is a stage, uh, within, uh, that particular framework. Um, you see, uh, the Koran mixing between, you know, practical instructions, uh, and stories and, uh, theological reflections and names of God. So, uh, so it's a, it's a integrated approach, uh, that I'm seeing, uh, utilized, uh, there in the way, uh, uh, in the style of the Koran. And I'm really getting inspired from how the Koran has structured, uh, you know, zura after Soura, um, uh, to try and connect between thunk and the practical instructions and the higher spiritual aims of closeness to God and realizations of the latent, um, divine qualities within a, a human being that can, uh, serve, uh, in their spiritual advancement. So that's kind of what I'm trying to do here.
Speaker 0 00:13:57 Um, how do you view the relationship between the Koran and Hadit in educing rulings, especially that we know, uh, that in the history of Islamic feminism, some Islamic feminists have, um, uh, have avoided, uh, engaging with the <unk> in specific
Speaker 1 00:14:15 Oh, thank you, <laugh>. So, for that question, so, um, uh, I'm, I'm, I totally, uh, have issues with, uh, the principle <unk>, which basically means <unk> is a judge over the Koran and abrogates it. So, uh, the meaning of this in practical terms is basically if you have a, uh, koranic, uh, text and you have, uh, <unk>, um, that are in conflict with each other, that contradict each other, that you basically take the <unk>, uh, over and above the Koran and, uh, throw the Koran aside. So, so this is a principle that I have, uh, issues with. And, uh, we see it in action in f we see it, for example, in the inheritance laws. The foundation for inheritance in the Koran is ins <unk> and its testament inheritance. It explains to people that, um, they need to, uh, give directions, uh, before they die, so that people know what to do, uh, with their wealth or, or anything they leave behind to, to, to instruct people as where and, uh, it should go and who should what.
Speaker 1 00:15:28 Um, and that's in politic <unk>. And there are very strong, uh, warnings against changing the person's will or, uh, you know, after they've passed away. And so, um, that, uh, very important text, uh, has been, uh, you know, uh, abrogated, uh, based on a <unk>. Uh, and the <unk> is, uh, very unclear. It's short. I mean, it's a great <unk>. I definitely, uh, think very highly of it, but I think it's been misinterpreted because, uh, <unk> tend to be short, cryptic statements and, uh, open to so many different interpretations, and we really do not have a methodology for, uh, properly interpreting the hadk. Uh, so that's one of the examples. Um, uh, when it comes to my approach to Hadid, I think we really need to focus on methodology of interpretation. Yes, there are so many hadk that are, uh, uh, uh, inauthentic and so many that are authentic, but we really need to focus more on interpretation, uh, at this point in time because of, you know, there's absolutely, I mean, interpretation is a mess when it comes to Hadid.
Speaker 1 00:16:37 Um, so, uh, in, in the, the, my particular, uh, methodology that I'm using, I'm using hadif as, uh, uh, as a, like, I value hadif, especially as, uh, historical, uh, texts that can tell us something about the prophets example, for example, uh, when it comes to divorce, he totally, uh, accepted, uh, a woman's right to divorce a an unwilling husband. Uh, you know, we have that in the example of Barrera, uh, for, for, you know, which is, I think, incredibly important, uh, to know that. So I think haddi are, uh, important. However, uh, we do need to focus attention on interpretation, and I can give you other examples if you want, where we have hadif, um, interpreted in, in ways that really don't fit, uh, the Quranic meaning of words, and all they do is assert male privilege.
Speaker 0 00:17:35 Um, how might this book, um, in your opinion, be relevant to activists and feminists on the ground working to reform laws, uh, to help promote gender justice and gender equality in their communities?
Speaker 1 00:17:51 Okay. So, um, many of the injustices that women are facing, uh, when it comes to things like divorce, uh, when it comes to things like, um, uh, inheritance when it comes to things like, um, uh, you know, uh, wife, uh, domestic violence, uh, a mistreatment abuse, so many, uh, problems in our legal systems, um, are justified on the basis that this is she, and this is, uh, God's will. And when women say, you know, this is really not the case, uh, uh, these texts have been mi misinterpreted. So you have, uh, proponents of, uh, and supporters of these injustices will often play the methodology card. They'll tell you, well, you know what? They had really good methodologies and sound methodologies, and, uh, uh, what methodology are you using? So that tends to be, uh, a, a common, uh, argument. So what I'm, uh, doing actually in this book is really demonstrating the problems with our methodologies, uh, you know, uh, in the way we interpret the Koran, um, and in the relationship between the Koran and Hadid in the way we interpret Hadif in, uh, the absolute lack of justice is in any of our, uh, you know, we don't have an independent, uh, an independent principle for justice, and also the problem with consensus, which really contributes rigidity, uh, to our laws.
Speaker 1 00:19:20 So I'm looking at the pro, the methodological problems, uh, in our legal systems, uh, in our ethical, legal, uh, thinking, but I'm also, uh, proposing solutions. Uh, so it's a constructive critique. So I'm, I'm not just saying, you know, um, uh, these don't work and let's just throw them out the window. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, uh, you know, these folks, they did good work. They have contributed valuable, uh, uh, contributions, however, they're not enough. Uh, for our day and age, there is room for improvement. Uh, and this is what I'm trying to do. I'm pr, I'm pr providing, and, and what all of our contributors are doing, they're providing solutions, uh, to some of the problems, uh, that we are facing. And, uh, so it will help, hopefully, activists and practitioners on the ground are just by demonstrating, uh, uh, the problems, uh, that we have, but also some of the solutions.
Speaker 0 00:20:16 Absolutely. But what do you think we could do to help spread the word? Of course, we're doing that through this podcast. Um, uh, definitely. Um, the book is gonna be on, um, our leading list at the college. Um, but what else as a feminist community could we do to distribute this knowledge, uh, among our communities?
Speaker 1 00:20:37 Well, it's all about really, uh, getting the word out. Um, uh, right now, women don't have, uh, access to a lot of the, uh, networks that are supported by, you know, governments and big money, uh, uh, to promote, uh, masculine a scholarship. Uh, we don't, and, and, and they really don't want, uh, room for women, uh, within their, uh, respective pulpits. I mean, uh, how often have you seen women in mss in a, in a mosque, for example? Uh, so, um, so we really need to have, uh, access to, uh, getting our word out in the various different information, uh, networks, hopefully also among youth, uh, because, uh, they're really, uh, motivated and, uh, hopeful of seeing, uh, change in their societies, of seeing justice in their societies. And, uh, these, you know, beautiful values that we see in the Koran actually implemented and actually, uh, reflected in their lived experiences, uh, in their, uh, respective, uh, context.
Speaker 1 00:21:43 So, um, it's getting the word out, which you're doing, and so thank you very much for that. Um, and also, uh, uh, challenging the domination of, uh, of men, uh, when it comes to, uh, religion and the interpretation of the religion. And, uh, religious leadership positions really need to see more women there. You know, for example, in so many of these <unk> councils, uh, the most of them are constructed of only men. I mean, where there are no women there. If you look at, um, uh, you know, uh, uh, <unk> for example, uh, they're mostly men. I mean, how, how, what is the percentage of women there? Uh, you know, it's not even, it's certainly not 50% or even 30%, it's more like 0%. And you see that in so many of the fil councils. If you do have women like the Filho Council of North America, they have, I think, three women out of 19 men and 19 people. Uh, but, but we really need to see more women, um, in decision making, uh, positions when it comes to <unk> in these various different councils. Um, we need to see them in religious leadership positions, and we need to see their voice, uh, valued and respected.
Speaker 0 00:22:57 Well, thank you for being on, uh, this episode of Woman of the Middle East podcast. This season has been dedicated, uh, to, um, uh, covering this amazing, uh, incredible book. Um, we do hope that we would all work together in disseminating the knowledge that is, of course, a part of this book, but also in, uh, promoting, um, the woman behind the book. Uh, um, I had, you know, uh, the pleasure of meeting. Thank you so much, Victoria.
Speaker 1 00:23:26 Uh, thank you so much, uh, Amal for, uh, providing me with this opportunity and for the great work that you're doing in, uh, promoting women's scholarship and justice and beauty, uh, in in Muslim societies and Muslim marriage, uh, in particular. Thank you so much. This
Speaker 0 00:23:44 Is Women of the Middle East podcast. Hope you enjoyed this episode of season five to stay up to date with women of the Middle East podcast. You can subscribe and don't forget to rate us. If you would like to contact me directly, you can do so on Instagram or Twitter or via email. This is Women of the Middle East podcast.
