Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:03 Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast, Woman of the Middle East. This podcast relates to realities of Arab women and the rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present the multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East. My name is a Le Malki. I'm a feminist scholar and educator. This is Women of the Middle East podcast. This is season four woman voices across genres where I will be speaking to women producing feminist content across different genres and outlets. These greatest voices delve into untapped areas such as women with disability, hybrid identities, intergenerational trauma, feminist narrative, and activism, and much, much more. I'm your host, Emma Maki, contributing to creating a new narrative about us by us. This is Women of the Middle East Podcast.
Speaker 2 00:00:59 Hello and welcome to Women of Limited Youth Podcast. We have Dr. Sharina, uh, who was born in the uk, uh, to a Welsh mother and an Egyptian father. And I emphasize this because hybrid is a huge part of who we are, and it informs, uh, our career options too. Uh, she's an author and an advocate of s rights. She's an expert of the intersection of political and intimate right in the Arab, and wider is Islamic world and writer, academic activist, and sexuality and masculinity in the Arab region. Um, many words that would scare anyone listening to us <laugh> or viewing
Speaker 3 00:01:38 It excite possibly, Right,
Speaker 2 00:01:40 Or excite them. Exactly. But you know what? Speaking about hybridity politics of, of identity and how it forms, um, our choices in, in life, um, should you tell me a bit about this? I have a theory on hybridity. I'm a hybrid as, as you know. Um, how did your hybridity inform your choices?
Speaker 3 00:02:03 Well, thank you very much for the invitation, Emma. It's a great pleasure to be here. And hello everyone. Uh, thank you for tuning in. Yes. So I am what I call a born again Arab. So I was brought up in Canada, as you said, from Egypt with an Egyptian father and a Welsh mother. And I never really thought about my Arab or uh, Muslim identity because I was growing up in the sort of eighties and it was not a big deal. Everything changed for me on September 11th. And I, I think for, for so many of us who crossed East and West, it wasn't possible to just sit on the fence anymore. And I, I, at the time, I was a journalist with the Economist magazine and I was sitting in these editorial meetings and when people were, were talking about, you know, those, those Muslims and those Arabs, and it was, it was a western, uh, educated perspective, but still a Western perspective.
Speaker 3 00:02:56 And I thought, you know what? I don't need to listen to other people telling me about this part of the world. I have privileged access through my heritage. I'd like to explore that. Now, what's interesting is the avenue I chose for that, because sexuality is not your usual route into, uh, the Middle East. So that came from my professional background because although I was a healthcare journalist at the time, my background is as a medical researcher. And part of my job back then was to report on the global hiv aids epidemic. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And of course, I had an interest in what was happening on hiv aids in our region. And back then, as you're looking at sort of early two thousands, uh, essentially people were saying, You know, HIV not gonna be a problem from us. For us, we are Muslims, we are Arabs. This is not our culture.
Speaker 3 00:03:47 Tali Michelle Michela. Um, and at the same time I was meeting all these men and women who were on the front lines of hiv. So I thought, well, really, I wanna understand what's going on there. And then as I started to dig into that, I discovered that it's really sex. I mean, the main root of transmission for our region is, is through sexual, through sexual relations. And it's all the taboos and the controls and the constraints around sexuality, which are really hampering our, our response. So it was very interesting, uh, in a sense, cuz my hybridity there really helped because when I went to talk to people and, and I spent five years traveling across our region talking to people about sex, There are worse ways to spend five years of your life <laugh>. Uh, and what was interesting is that actually people would say to me, Shereen, how can you get people to talk about these issues?
Speaker 3 00:04:42 But what happened to me is it wasn't getting people to talk, it was getting people to stop talking. Well, because everyone has a story. People have lots and lots of questions. The problem, the reason that these questions aren't aired very much is because of the fear of how am I going to be seen, particularly for women? Am I going to be seen as a bad woman, uh, because I have this curiosity or this experience? So when they saw me, they saw someone who was connected to the culture through my, through my nationality, through my heritage, through my religion. But at the same time, I look very foreign. Andy, she lale. Aha. But, but so, so they thought that they could speak to me because I would understand where they were coming from. But at the same time, because I came from the West, that I wouldn't judge them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it could have been the worst of both worlds, but it actually turned out to be the best,
Speaker 2 00:05:33 What are the most shocking facts, um, out of this five years experience of talking about sex to people who, uh, live within this culture of shame, uh, that wouldn't even, uh, talk about sex, even if it's connected to a health issue.
Speaker 3 00:05:53 Interesting. So I, I discussed this in great detail in my book, Sex and the Citadel. By the way, everyone, it's a great reading. I urge you to go on Amazon buy in bulk. I agree. Uh, thank you very much. Um, so essentially the title is Sex and the Citadel and the Sit Citadel Kala is, is a fortress. And really what that means is that we have this construction around sexuality that the only socially accepted context for sex is marriage. And it's not just any old marriage. It has to be religiously approved. It has to be state sanctioned, it has to be, uh, condoed by your family. And then anything outside that is Ia Pata, Michelle. I mean, we have a whole vocabulary of, uh, about taboo. The problem that we face in our region increasingly is that many people are outside the system. These are young people who in many parts of our region, cannot afford to get married.
Speaker 3 00:06:49 In, in, in many parts of North Africa, for example, the average age of marriage is now over 30 for men and late twenties for women. Wow. Yes. So our economic conditions have changed. And I was trying to find the flexibility that we exist within Islam. And this comes to the point, what was the most shocking finding? The most shocking finding was that we have a collective amnesia as Arabs and as Muslims we're very buttoned up today about, about sex. This is actually a relatively recent development for most of our history as Muslims, as Arabs. We were famous in the world, not for being buttoned up about sex, but actually being too open about sex. It's really fascinating when you go back to the history of our literature. We have these fabulous books that are written in Arabic between about the ninth and the 15th, 16th centuries.
Speaker 3 00:07:44 And they are full on about sexuality books were written also by the Olima as well, because they saw sexuality in Islam as a gift from God. And contrary to the framings of sexuality that we have, that Islam is anti-sex, not at all. Islam, back to its origins, recognizes the power of sex. And it sees it as so powerful that it needs to be channeled. Because if you don't control this life force, you'll get fit. So we have, you know, historically have ways through marriage, through concubinage, which is no longer legal. Um, but in any case, it's not anti-sex. And I think that has been completely forgotten. And when I meet young people across our region, even educated people, they simply don't know about this heritage. It's even whitewashed. And, and one of the messages I have when I talk to people about sexuality in our region is, please don't listen to the conservatives when they tell you that it is black and white on most issues to do with sexuality.
Speaker 3 00:08:47 It's, there are at least 50 shades of gray on any issue, particularly as it relates to women's sexuality. So that was the biggest surprise, I think, think that people didn't realize the other very big change. And, and I've done a whole series of films, uh, for the BBC Arabic based on these, uh, pioneers of sexuality in our region. And what's interesting is that despite all these taboos and controls, there are lots and lots of people across our region who are breaking the boundaries mm-hmm. <affirmative> and in a very, you know, culturally nuanced way, but are pushing the barriers a little bit. Uh, to give you an example, there is a group in Palestine, um, Monte, they're looking at how do we introduce sexuality education to young people in very conservative settings. How do we work with parents, for example, How do we work with teachers?
Speaker 3 00:09:35 There was a fantastic woman, a real, a pioneer called Aisha Chen. She sadly, uh, passed away a couple of weeks ago. Uh, a la haha. Um, she opened up space to talk about unmarried mothers in Morocco and made it a socially accepted con public of conversation that even the king himself would engage in. So there's a lot of movement, but the problem is that still they're like bubbles. And since the Arab Spring, these bubbles have got bigger and bigger and bigger. But it only takes, frankly, one prick and it all comes, it all comes crashing down. So there are people pushing forward, but there are still lots and lots of people pushing back.
Speaker 2 00:10:18 Okay. So when we learned from you that there was this, um, cultural tradition, uh, long tradition actually, and
Speaker 3 00:10:26 Long and colorful and very explicit tradition,
Speaker 2 00:10:30 Okay. But it has been whitewashed or has been absent, you know, made absence, you know, if disappeared from, uh, our history. What, um, how do you think about the research you do? Um, again, because of the fact that you deal with those topics that are very tab in our part of the world, How do you ensure that this type of research is disseminated? You know, people read about it, know the people that you target the
Speaker 3 00:10:59 Most. Well, coming on podcasts like this certainly help, although I appreciate that we're speaking to a specific audience cuz we're also speaking in English mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, but certainly when my book came out, I did a lot of mass, mass media and I made a point of talking to particularly young people in, in our region. And again, turning it into films for BBC Arabic was also very, very helpful. Cause that reached a wider, a wider audience. Uh, and I, I hear from people every week I get messages on my social media and it's very much the same story that Dr. I I, I read your book and for the first time I I really felt that there were, there was a space for me here in our culture and it has opened up conversations that I can now have with my mother. I never talked to my mother about these issues.
Speaker 3 00:11:46 And now we're, we're, we're, we're we're at least starting to broach it. Uh, even um, the other day I was at a conference and a health minister from one of our countries, uh, said, said to me, I was introduced in my formal capacity, um, working on hiv. And he said, You sure Author of Sex the Citadel <laugh>. Yes. And he said, Oh, this is my wife's favorite book. Um, so, you know, I try as hard as I can to get the message out, but one of the issues that we have in our region is that, as you well know, I mean there is a big gap between what is happening in terms of research in academia and what is filled book out to the media. And very often because there is state censorship, the the formal media either are not very, either not aware or there is an agenda, often not their own, it's imposed by authorities or they just don't have the capacity to talk about these issues cuz they themselves have not been trained mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I, I think we have multiple layers of trying to raise awareness. Uh, but the great thing of course is that we now have social media, which everyone is on in this region. Um, but again, you know, this is not just about sexuality, anything to do with social media. People tend to gravitate to what they want to hear, what they wanna see. Our challenge, people who want to open up space is how do we get those people over to, to hear our messages as well?
Speaker 2 00:13:06 What about kids? What could we do now? The whole, um, issue of introducing sexual or sexuality education, What is the right term? Sex sexual,
Speaker 3 00:13:18 It depends where you are in the world. We, the, the, the, the internationally accepted term is comprehensive sexuality education. Okay. Now, I can tell you as someone who is with the United Nations, I am the regional director for the Middle East and North Africa at UN a s. So we, we deal with hiv, uh, in, uh, in our region. There is a lot of sensitivity around that terminology. C se, comprehensive sexuality education. And a lot of battles are fought at these big level meetings in the un and they often end in just a complete impasse. I frankly, um, uh, am of the opinion that arose, is arose by any other name, I actually don't care what we call it. I want us to find a language that people feel comfortable with. Because one of the problems around sexuality in particular in our region is that people are embarrassed with the topic, but they also really don't have a vocabulary because the only language that they have, because there is no CSE, is the language of the street. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so if they're gonna talk about sex very often when they can, they will speak in English. Or if you're in North Africa in French, or I've met Palestinians living in Israel, who would prefer to talk about it in Hebrew, frankly,
Speaker 2 00:14:31 This themselves to
Speaker 3 00:14:32 This. Yeah. Now, the tragedy of all this is that way back in the day, so talking a long time ago, over, over a millennium ago, we were the masters of the Language of Sex. There's this great dictionary and it talks about there being 1,328 verbs in Arabic or to have sexual intercourse. Yeah. The whole dictionary is beautiful. Um, and a again, so we used to be able to talk about these things. So reclaiming the language is very important and that is really also key for young people. Yeah. I, I I, you know, in, in some countries where they're trying to do this, they're calling it life skills education or, um, you know, family education. Again, as long as we get the concepts across, I don't think it really, I'm, I'm not hung up on what we, what we call it. And I actually do feel that there is a need now for people.
Speaker 3 00:15:28 We're coming from different traditions, different cultures, and I'm gonna lump it as the West, but it's very diverse, the recognition that other parts of the world look at these issues differently. And when they want to use different terminology or come at these questions differently, it's not that they're being difficult. They, they, they just are working within a different set of parameters. And I think it behooves those on the other side, on both sides to try to meet in the middle. But at the moment we're very, we're very polarized. And you think offering the language help, I think it will help. I think it, and there are groups that are trying to do this, I can recommend for, for those who are interested, there's this great, um, a website called Alhab. Kafa. Yeah. Loves culture. It was set up by a group of, uh, people like myself who are living in, in, in the west.
Speaker 3 00:16:15 Uh, and it's really trying to give straight talk on sex in Arabic. And it's very good because it's trying to open up, uh, the space. I'm not convinced that going through the traditional school based curriculum is the way to go on helping young people because I, I, I think there are lots of layers of obstacles and some of those obstacles are that not, it is largely the, the gatekeepers, the custodians. So very often teachers feel really uncomfortable, uh, teaching parents feel like Exactly. Quite frankly, just, just because you've had sex and have children does not make you an expert on sexuality. And very often parents, when they're confronted with their children, perhaps your kids are still, you know, young-ish. But, you know, coming to this very often when they're presented with children asking really pointed questions because they don't have as parents' information themselves, they just default to the very conservative, you know, hu up <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:17:15 Yeah. So I think it's important that we have broader based programs that educate everyone and bring parents into the fold. And what's very interesting, actually it's a, it's a bit late in the day, but it's a good entry point. I'm not sure if they still have them, but I wrote about this in the book and I came to, um, a premarital, premarital, uh, premarital training, if you like, here in Kaka. They had a course for young people who were going to get married on sort of how to keep the couple stable. I'm not sure if they still have them as great. And they had, of course, they had, they had conversations on sexuality there and women in one place, the men and the other. And it was fascinating. And I talked to these young men at all sorts of questions, uh, and they were really looking for answers.
Speaker 3 00:18:02 So, you know, even though it's as late as that, it's, it's important that we, we opened up this space for, for people to feel comfortable to ask the questions that they, that they desperately want answers for. Because if you don't give them to them, they will have alternate. You know, there are other ways of finding them. And pornography, by the way, uh, which is universal, is, is, is, is is the place that many young people go, including in our region to find answers. And pornography is a, is, is, is, is a, is a twisted, cracked mirror of, of sexual reality and, and creates all sorts of distortions. So I, I think there are interesting, um, examples as I've talked about, of ways that we can bring this education to young people. And of course it needs to be tailored to their age. It has to be age appropriate, but it's not impossible to do. We just had to have the courage to start having those conversations.
Speaker 2 00:18:58 So you are, you are also conducting studies on masculinity. And I'm very, um, interested in toxic masculinity in our part of the region. And I wanna ask you, is there such a thing as toxic masculinity
Speaker 3 00:19:12 Ex all excellent questions. Let me start by saying that this work is historical for me. Okay. Okay. Cause I'm now, uh, I'm now with Unaid. So my focus is on hiv. Of course, masculinity feeds into it because the majority of people who, who get HIV and our region habit to be met. So I'm not a fan of the term toxic masculinity. I think it's convenient shorthand, but actually my framing of, of, of, of masculinity, and particularly as it relates to the Arab world, is to try to understand the pressures that that men experience. I'm not trying to excuse their behaviors. I'm trying to, I'm trying to explain them and understand them. And so my, my my entry point to that, if I can just go back a bit mm-hmm. <affirmative>, is that when my book came out, uh, everyone said, Oh, you know, it's a book about women's sexuality.
Speaker 3 00:19:57 And I said, No, no, no, no. I talked to hundreds of men and women. The fact that you hear mainly women's voices is because they had rather more interesting things to say than, than than men. And the reason for that is that men, except if they come from a sexual minority, have never really reflected on sexuality. Cause it's things taken for granted. And they don't have the biological imperative by and large that we as women have to really think about sex and re and reproduction. So I wanted to know more about men and it was, it seemed like a paradox cuz men are the pillars of our patriarchies. Right? But we actually don't know very much about them, this whole field of masculinity studies, uh, which by the way, I just gotta tell you a really interesting story about it. So, masculinity studies is a relatively new field, and it, it's what it doesn't mean to be a man.
Speaker 3 00:20:45 But what's interesting about masculinity studies is that it started in Australia, I think around the 1980s. And it was started by someone called R w Connell, Richard Connell. But, and it, but what happened over time is that we, we don't use the term Richard Connell Connell, we just use r w Connell because Richard Connell became a woman. So the father of masculinity studies is actually now the mother of masculinity studies. So I love these, I love these paradoxes. But the reality is we just didn't have much in the Arab world. So I connected with a group called PR Mundo, uh, back then now called Equa Mundo. And they're the world's leading group on trying to engage men and boys on gender equality. This is long before hashtag me too. And so they had something called the International Men and Gender Equality Survey. This is a household survey and qualitative research.
Speaker 3 00:21:36 It's literally everything you wanted to know about men's and women's attitudes towards gender in politics, in home, who does what in the house, uh, who makes what decisions. Lots and lots of really intimate questions about domestic violence, what we call intimate partner violence, um, economic, physical, but also sexual violence men in the no holds bar. And we interviewed over the course of about five years in seven countries in our region, more than 15,000 men and women, on what does it mean to be a man today in the Arab world. Research that had never been done before. And it was really fascinating. The, the findings and what we, you know, we talk about a crisis of masculinity all around, all around the world, but I, I don't see some, it is a crisis, but I actually prefer to frame it as a crossroads of masculinity because it became very clear in all this data is that men and women in our region, they, they understand that the old models of, of what are expected of men and women are no longer.
Speaker 3 00:22:40 But what is the new, what is the new direction? Uh, and one of the most interesting findings from all this is that we ask lots and lots of questions to create something what's called the Gender Equitable Men's Scale. So this is a series of, of questions about, uh, women should have the same right, to work outside the home than men. Uh, young women should have the same right, to live on their own as, as men. Uh oh. It is more important for a woman to look after the children and the home then to have a career. Kaza Kaza has all sorts of questions. Mm-hmm. Uh, a man is expected to be the guardian of his female relatives. And through that we created, uh, a scale. And that scale is from zero to three. And if you score three, you are like Iceland. Okay? You know, complete gender equality, men and women.
Speaker 3 00:23:26 If you score zero, you're like places in our region basically where there's a big gap. This survey interviewed men and women between the ages of 18 and 59. And it's been done the images survey done in about 45 countries, or actually more than 50 countries now. Okay. So everywhere else in the world, world, when we interviewed men and women, what we found is that young women, uh, scored higher than older women. So, which meant they had more open attitudes towards gender equality. Everywhere else in the world you go, young men also score, score higher than their, than older men. Except in our region, was it the Bruce Young women still scoring much higher. And by the way, we did this survey in one GCC country, and I'd love to do it here. Um, and uh, and, and, and it was very clear that these women were way ahead.
Speaker 3 00:24:16 They're way ahead of every other women. All other women else were in the region. Yeah. It was fascinating. The problem are the men, the men, the younger men scored as low or lower than their fathers or grandfathers. So what that means is that, and I see this anecdotally, that young women are heading in one direction and young men are heading in another, basically. And then the big research question that comes from that is, well, why, why are these men? And I have a theory about that. Uh, I think it's, I think it's two things. I think it's not a coincidence that the men who are scoring lower, um, are particularly outside of gcc, but in other parts of the region are between 18 and 35. And these are the men with the highest rates of unemployment Okay. In our region. And, and, and when the mens were talking to us about what does it mean to be a man, it was very clear that, well, it's what I call homo economicus.
Speaker 3 00:25:12 I am a man because I can provide for my family. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And if I cannot provide, how am I a man? So it's not a surprise that these men who, uh, are under economic pressure are, are frankly, uh, our, our frankly angry and frustrated and what they see as women taking our jobs. I think the other element which is less explored is this is also a generation that has grown up in, uh, the shadow of Islamic conservatism, which we know puts women in a box. Definitely. We don't talk so much about the box that it puts men into. I mean, this salus, uh, what I call the sal fantasy of the, you know, the, the, you know, the powerful man who was in control of everything. I mean, the prophet piece be upon him. I would argue that he's a feminist. He loved women. He, you, he had
Speaker 2 00:26:00 Respected
Speaker 3 00:26:01 Strong women in his life. I mean, uh, side I Fija for example, and was, was his mentor. So to sell a fantasy that, that, that men are, you know, all powerful. I think it's also a box for men and very hard for them to break out of. And the vast majority of our programs and, and, and, and uh, policies are focused on women's economic, political, social, cultural empowerment as they should be. But the work that I was doing on this is to also encourage us to think about, well, how are we going tore? You know, how are we gonna bring men along with this as well? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:26:37 And be a part of that conversation.
Speaker 3 00:26:39 Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:26:40 So if you think about the find things of this one, uh, question specific in the gcc, which I don't know which, but you tell me afterwards. Um, I would assume that the ideology part, uh, also applies to, to the GCC would been also, um, victims of, of Salus ideology. Uh, but also I think the change that has happened in our part of the world has, and the speed of change has kind of affected the gender dynamics in the country. The, um, the changing of the gender roles here in Qatar, for example, uh, was done, uh, suddenly Yeah. Maybe shooked the community, the the traditional structure of the community. But more also when we see the number of, um, uh, women, uh, graduate of universities here, they're much higher. Yeah. Uh, that men as,
Speaker 3 00:27:40 So I, I, I'm gonna just paraphrase what you said. I interviewed, uh, a young, uh, feminist, uh, sexual rights activist in Tunisia. Uh, and, uh, I asked her about this and she summed it up beautifully. She said, she, you, you know, you know, shaneen, we women in Tunisia, you know, when we travel, when we go and see the world, our minds open. But the man, he's still at the prehistoric stage. And, and she was talking about, you know, male dinosaurs. Now the problem this, this feeds into is when you come to marry who you gonna marry, you know, it, it's still the expectation, it's the citadel, Right? It, people don't wanna be outside. They would actually quite like to be inside the Citadel. But I meet lots and lots of intelligent, dynamic, ambitious, uh, successful, attractive, uh, women who can't find a husband because they want to marry within the culture. And frankly, the men are not keeping up. And, and it has, it has, uh, it has ripples across, across society. And that's why I'm very much of the opinion that we do need to have male allies.
Speaker 2 00:28:47 Uh, what's next to you? What, what's other areas of sexuality that you
Speaker 3 00:28:52 Wanna focus on? I, I'm working on another book. Uh, it's still under wraps at the moment, but, uh, it hopefully it'll, it'll, it'll provoke, It'll No, no, actually no, that's not fair. I don't, I don't wanna provoke in the sense that I want to inflame, I want to inspire people to ask questions and challenge received wisdoms, as I said, when people tell you it has to be this way, but why, uh, and provide them the evidence to perhaps ask the questions for themselves. So there's that. And then my work on HIV is a huge undertaking because I don't think many people are aware that, uh, we have seen a 33% rise in new HIV infections in the Middle East and North Africa over the past decade. So in the rest of the world, if you look globally, there's been about a 50% drop in infections.
Speaker 3 00:29:44 So the world's going down like this, and we're going up like, like this. And we have the second highest rate of increase anywhere in the world. The only people who are doing worse than us, frankly are Eastern Europe and Central Asia. And they've got a whole bunch of problems. Uh, and we have the lowest rates of testing and treatment on the planet. And it's not a question of money and it's not a question of availability. We have all that. The question is the mindset and the, the stigma and the discrimination and the ignorance. Really, I am getting messages from people every day. I get messages. Cuz my, my my, my email address is on the u NH website, Please write to me. Uh, and it starts something like this, Uh, Dear Doctor Sharin, I am living in Country x I have just discovered that I have hiv.
Speaker 3 00:30:36 Uh, I don't know where to get treatment. Uh, I, I'm ashamed. I cannot tell my family, uh, I'm thinking of killing myself because I'm afraid I'm going to die. Uh, because again, the knowledge about HIV is Yeah. From 1990s. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. The, the, this notion, for example, that we have medications have new medicines now that you take an injection once every two months and hello us. And also this medication drops your, um, your HIV levels to such a low state that you can't see it. Tests, don't pick it up in your blood, but when it's that low, you also can't transmit hiv. So we have this concept, uh, undetectable equals untransmittable. None of that is happening in our region. Cause people just don't know about it. So these poor people who write to me and think they have a death, they're of a death sentence. Oh. And for those who are, I mean, I'm sorry to say this, but in, in a number of GCC countries, uh, by the way, I'm a foreigner and they're going to deport me within 48 hours.
Speaker 4 00:31:36 Yes.
Speaker 3 00:31:37 Where do we go from here? So this is really, I'm trying to open up space and I'm trying to find, again, part of the evolution, not revolution, socially acceptable, basically on ramps to the freeway of actually dealing with hiv. Because the problem we have in our region is HIV is still concentrated in particular groups of people who are vulnerable. So if you look at the overall numbers, they're still quite low compared to, let's say, sub-Saharan Africa. But in these particular groups, they're very high. Now these particular groups happen to be marginalized and criminalized. And so that's a big issue. But what I'm trying to get policy makers to, to think about is, look, you, it, you know, it's, um, do you know, do you know what kaleidoscope, Do you know what a kaleidoscope is? Yeah. Yeah. Micca. So a kaleidoscope, for those of you who don't know, is, um, it's like a, it's a toy and it's still like a telescope.
Speaker 3 00:32:27 You look down into it, you had pieces of glass at the bottom and it, they form a pattern color glass. And then you turn the kaleidoscope and you see a different pattern. So it's like that with hiv, I'm trying to get, get policy makers to make HIV a priority. And when they tell me, ah, you know, sha we have so many other problems, this is not a priority. I say, ah, look, don't look at this that way. Turn the pieces. It's because you have so relatively few HIV cases today that your country of our region could be the first in the world to reach this un target of ending HIV as a public health threat by 2030. It's because of where we are today, but it, but if we don't take action, then we,
Speaker 2 00:33:08 We,
Speaker 3 00:33:09 We, we'll lose that chance that there are other parts of the world where people are literally dying for this opportunity. Here is our chance. Can, can you imagine what it would mean to the people of our region, but also frankly to us as Arabs in in the wider world, if we could say that we faced up to this and we ended
Speaker 2 00:33:28 It. Yeah. And this kind of conversation goes to the reaches Burke
Speaker 3 00:33:35 Highest levels. Now I'm meeting, I'm meeting, I'm on the road a lot. And, and it's, it's getting a, it definitely there is, there is, there is definitely a change now happening that countries that were very reluctant to engage on HIV are now starting to have these conversations. And the, the start of it actually is even knowing what is happening on hiv, knowing your epidemic, even research, you know, basic research because that gets you into tricky, tricky topics of behaviors and all that. There are countries that five years ago were completely resisting and complete denial are now saying, Oh, we wanna do this study cuz we really wanna understand and we really wanna act. So again, wata after, but if, if we take our time and we do it right, there's a real opportunity here.
Speaker 2 00:34:24 So you're doing, you're having this conversation on this level. How about, um, the youth, the younger generation, are they, can they, can they be actually, uh, you know, some action groups?
Speaker 3 00:34:36 Uh, absolutely, Absolutely. We're engaging with that. And again, the World Cup is a very interesting opportunity here because it's about sport, it's about health, and we're trying to find culturally sensitive ways. There's nothing mu you know, but also it's not just about protecting yourself, it's also about social protection, how you treat other people. There's nothing Islamic about stigma or discrimination against people living with hiv. Uh, and so there are a lot of opportunities to engage with, with young people. And we do it across, uh, across our region. Morocco in particular has been very successful on this. And often what we're doing now is pairing countries that are less advanced. They have less experience and pairing them with countries in our region that have been doing this for a while. Because we don't, this is the other thing about us as as, as a region, we have tremendous expertise. What we, what we don't have our opportunities, right. Because the go-to people are foreigners. Right. Hello us. We like, let's build our capacity. Let's build our own people.
Speaker 2 00:35:38 I love your passion. I I can feed it from here.
Speaker 3 00:35:42 Well, it's, it's, it's also because I meet pe I work with people like you and by the way, the crew here as well, uh, and, and people who are really interested in starting to have these conversations. So I'm so grateful for this opportunity and
Speaker 2 00:35:53 Thank you for having those, uh, very difficult conversations on our behalf.
Speaker 3 00:35:58 So shipping is your,
Speaker 1 00:36:00 This is Women of the Middle East podcast. Thank you for listening and watching to stay up to date with Women of the Middle East podcast. You can subscribe and don't forget to rate us. If you would like to contact me directly, you can do so on Instagram or Twitter or via email.
