Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast. This podcast relates the realities of Arab women and their rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East. Season five is a collaboration between MUA and Women of the Middle East Podcast. As we will be discussing Mu Our's latest book, justice and Beauty in Muslim Love towards egalitarian ethics and laws published by One World Academic in December of 2022. My name is Am Malki. I'm a feminist scholar and an educator. This is Women of the Middle East Podcast. Hello and welcome to season five of Footman of the Middle East podcast. This season is dedicated to discussing the groundbreaking book, justice and Beauty in Muslim marriage. We begin with the first section of the P book titled <unk>. This section is made up of three chapters. Authors of these chapters argue for moving beyond pre-modern interpretations of the Quran that per perpetuate patriarchal ethics, and instead emphasize centering the Quranic ethical worldview of justice, beauty, and goodness In line with the realities of the 21st century. We are very lucky to have two of the authors who contributed to this section, Dr. Ababa, and
Speaker 1 00:01:23 Thank you. Thank you very much for having us.
Speaker 2 00:01:25 Thank you
Speaker 0 00:01:25 Very. I would like to begin by asking you about your contribution and the importance of your contribution to this book in terms of both, um, uh, profession, of course, growth, but also personal reasoning, uh, given that you're both slim woman who've of course been a part of that context that perpetuates, um, the inferiority of women and, and marriages in Islam. Dr. Michelle, we begin with you.
Speaker 1 00:01:55 Thank you. This is a very good question indeed, because, uh, I think I speak for, first of all, my, my two colleagues in the chapter, uh, Dr. Asam, Robert and Dr. Mor Sherman, also the others. And you put it rightly when you said it was both professional and a personal project as well. Uh, it was a professional because this is an academic research that, you know, we all worked on and researched and wrote and analyzed, but we all have, most of us have a personal investment also in the topic. We, we are after all Muslim women, and, and this is our call. So it was also important to us personally and spiritually to, to sort these things out during the, during the writing process.
Speaker 0 00:02:41 Definitely. And your, you're a scholar, but also an activist. Tell me how important was this project for you?
Speaker 2 00:02:48 Yes. Uh, this project for me is, uh, like a part of, uh, life journey because, uh, I know MUA very well, and also I have involved in MU's other project, like research on qma and as, uh, two key concept of gender relation in Muslim family and also in MUA knowledge building course. I even believe that MUA has given a big impact to women's hockey justice, this, uh, concept that I use in this book. So, uh, I saw this project as an opportunity to examine my ability to use women's haki justice to unlearn the old concept of marriage in Muslim societies, uh, which is gender bias, and to relearn the new concept of marriage in Islam, which must be just to woman as wife, mothers, brothers, and others in, uh, Muslim family.
Speaker 0 00:03:53 Dr. <unk>. Um, the chapter contributed to is Koran Ethics of Marriage. This chapter sets an overarching Quran interpretation framework for marriage consisting of interconnected ethical principles. And can you tell us more about the main points of, of this chapter?
Speaker 1 00:04:11 We try to begin with outlining, um, uh, a specific methodology in addressing the verses on marriage and divorce, but not just the verses, it's the whole koic true what we believe is true paric vision of, uh, marriage, as Dr. Nu was saying, to undo, uh, perhaps, uh, decades and centuries of understanding marriage as a hierarchical system, right? As a hierarchy. We try to, to first to point out the gaps that we saw in classical Sier tradition, and then put forth our methodology, which is really based on two important things on more of a holistic, uh, approach. In other words, tying the verses together, tying the SOS together, and not just the, the verse, not just the individual, uh, verses and, and the sos here and there, but the reason we call it holistic because it's all interconnected, holistic and ethical. That's the second pillar. What does it mean, ethical that we have to take seriously the krank ethical principles, the egalitarian of the Quran of, of justice and equality and non-hierarchical relations. You have to take these main ethical principles of the Quran seriously and apply them to gender relations, particularly in, in, in marriage.
Speaker 0 00:05:39 You have uncovered some important gaps in the classical testier tradition. Why was this holistic approach towards interpretation absent in that time period? Uh, why haven't we seen that through, uh, the rine back then?
Speaker 1 00:05:59 Yeah, yeah. Uh, of course, when we say the absence of, uh, of a total comprehensive, realistic approach, we don't mean to, to make a generalizations, a generalization about that, about that aspect, because of course, the rine did a fantastic job <laugh> in, in, in everything. And they were aware, particularly linguistically. And, uh, also on the level of ahk rulings. Of course, they were aware of how all the verses are tied in a particular cause or, or, or subject. Uh, but we claim that when it came to gender, this, this vision of holism or this vision of applying principles to, to understanding the ahk wasn't really perfect. Right? And that was the main gap. And when it, when it came to gender or, you know, the, the marriage and divorce ahk, uh, you were asking about what is the reason. The main reason is of course, the, the, the patriarchal culture and the patriarchal, uh, uh, outlook that they all were part of. And this is not, this is not their fault, right? They were just part of that age. Uh, they, they couldn't see. Perhaps that's what we claim. Egalitarian ethos of the Quran should have been taken seriously and should have been taken as an incentive to change, uh, uh, societies. So that was, that was part of it. That was part of the reason why they couldn't see that or apply that all the time.
Speaker 0 00:07:31 Definitely. And I truly believe that there were enlightened and more holistic interpretations, uh, back then, but the dominant discourse that have reached us is one that has become the dominant, the mainstream that feeds into specific agendas, uh, of patriarchy. But what do you think? Do you agree with
Speaker 1 00:07:51 Me? Yes, yes, of course. The, uh, the, uh, the bias of course, and, uh, hierarchy, you know, there was, this is always the view that, well, men are better than women. Um, they have more capabilities, they're more rational. Uh, they're really addressed more by God, sohan, <unk>, uh, not, not women, not females. And of course, Dr. Nu has a lot to say about that, about, you know, that's not really the case at all. Women are part of humanity that Koran addresses, right? Uh, so, so you are, you're right in, in the sense that, uh, this is one of the reasons why we still, uh, struggle with some interpretations of kma as authority of, uh, of Tara as absolute obedience, uh, to the husband, because this is in return of the Africa. You know, all of these things that really need to be un unpack or unlearned, as Dr. <laugh> Nu was saying, we need to unlearn all these, uh, concepts and, and think of them anew,
Speaker 0 00:08:58 Dr. Noir. Um, so you've, uh, authored a chapter called Reading the Koran through Women's Experiences. The, the title is beautiful, and the chapter offers a holistic reading that recognizes women's underlying historical marginalization and physical experiences and charts the trajectory towards gender justice. Tell me more about
Speaker 2 00:09:19 It. Women <unk> justice, uh, starts from a belief that in Islam, women are full human. So it means that, uh, women are also, are not only physical, but also intellectual and spiritual, uh, human being as men. And the second one, we also believe that women are the primary ruler on earth or holy fulfill all. So women cannot be longer seen as the secondary ruler. Uh, in Islam, boman and women are primary ruler on Earth. Starting from this, we believe that men are neither the single standard of women humanity nor their justice. This means that we have to take women's experiences as human, that men don't have into consideration in understanding Islam, especially These two experiences, one bodily experiences, because of the reproductive system, women will experience five bodily experiences that men don't have menstruation in weeks. And the impact of, uh, this is other or painful pregnancy in months, ninth months, and then baby delivery in hours or days, nifa in weeks or months, and breastfeeding in years or two years.
Speaker 2 00:11:03 And, uh, their impact are <unk> hiring even, or multiple painful and tiring. Let's compare with the role of women, of men bodies in human's, reproduction, which is only producing sperm in minutes, even second, and the impact is joy. So what we call mak in Islam, it cannot add any pain of women's bodily experiences. And the second one is women's social experiences. Because of the patriarchal system that fail women lower than men, this cause women socially are in high risk to be treated unjustly based on gender, especially in these five poems. One, stigma, marginalization, subordination, violences and double burdens. Women's hack justice require to neither add the pain of women's bodily experiences, nor contain or cause any form of, uh, gender based injustice against women, even when men will never feel this bodily and social pains. So men are no longer become the single standard of women's humanity and, uh, women justice.
Speaker 2 00:12:42 This is very important because since men don't experience, uh, those kind of experiences, they don't know the pain since they dunno. They, they think that this kind of experiences don't exist. Meanwhile, we know that men are still dominating in the, uh, decision as the decision makers in marriage, family societies, that even in the global, uh, levels. So when they are dominating the system making, uh, places, and they don't take this kind of experiences of women into consideration, we are, uh, we cannot hope that the justice in the men's perspective, that ignore the woman's experiences will be the justice to woman.
Speaker 0 00:13:40 Very, um, interesting how well you bring those experiences from the periphery and put it and centralize it within this context. And I don't think this has been done before. This leads me to the second question to you, Dr. No. How has this approach, uh, been successfully adopted in activism around the Muslim, uh, family law reform in Indonesia?
Speaker 2 00:14:03 Of course, this, uh, this approach is not a single approach, this approach together with, uh, other approaches like <unk>, uh, done by faculty and Abdul in I Indonesia, and also ma of concept by fai, also from Indonesia, uh, and other approaches in Indonesia, we trying and, and use this, uh, approach in ministry of religious affairs, national training model on marriage guidance for prospective rises and grooms. So we have national training and use model that we build together the model and use this, uh, approach. And the second one, we also use this approach to the concept of ma family belongs to nama. This is the, the largest Islamic organization in Indonesia. They also will train the members in national level using this concept and this approach. Uh, so the concept of Maha family also use this approach, and this the third one. This is also important. This approach also used as the advocacy for policy makers, especially through Indonesian women's Congress, fatwas, for example, the fatwa on the obligation of family, society and state to protect children from marriage. This fatwa has been one of the legacy to increase the minimum age of women and men from 16 years old, four girls and 19, four boys to 19 years old for both. And also the fatwa on prohibition of sexual violence, uh, both inside and outside marriage also has been used to advocate law of criminal act of sexual violence. This is, uh, some impact of, uh, our, uh, <inaudible>, uh, use the women's <unk> justice as one approach, uh, uh, among other approaches.
Speaker 0 00:16:32 It's amazing to see that in, in Indonesia, they managed to reform the family law from within through an Islamic perspective lens. Drima, going back to you, you speak about how the quran's egalitarian ethics of marriage is formulated within three interconnected circles. What are those circles?
Speaker 1 00:16:55 Yes. This was part of, uh, our methodology in approaching, uh, particular, uh, uh, uh, topics in the Quran. But the idea, the methodology, is before you jump into the, into whatever verse on, uh, uh, and, and treat it as a separate and isolated unit, you need the conceptual framework. And that is very important. So that's why we, we thought, or were devised of, of these, uh, uh, interconnected circles or these concentric circles where you need these concept before you enter the verse. The first circle, of course, is, uh, the concepts of, if people look at the first verse of, of it, it just gives you the map. It gives you that, uh, first circle of basic ontological equality of humanity, of human beings, of the <unk>, of the two pairs of human beings. And the, the, the importance of of, of <unk> as you know, again, the ethical foundation that, I mean, if you look at that, this is the ethical foundation that is supposed to govern all our interpretations of all the acam, of all the rulings.
Speaker 1 00:18:13 So the first circle is the basic ontological quality, and the matching pair is <inaudible>, no hierarchy. I don't know where we got the, the, the idea of hierarchy or of, uh, superiority and inferiority. No basic equality, ontological equality and moral agency of both of men and women in vis-a-vis gods of their, their responsibility, uh, and how they are matching pairs. So it's really important that you begin addressing, uh, uh, gender or gender relations in marriage from that, from that in first conceptual inception, so to speak. The second one would be, of course, the people, again, don't take that very seriously. It's a solemn bond, right? That was used in the Koran to refer to the bond between the prophets and a loss of <unk>. So how, how serious a commitment is, is that right? It's not something to be taken into jest, but it's almost something that's ethical, that's moral, that's spiritual to be taken seriously.
Speaker 1 00:19:21 It's like having a solom bond for both men and women with gods of right. The third, and then we go into the specific ethical principles, also all Koranic principles <unk> of course, that famous definition that the famous, uh, foundational, uh, koranic and Islamic definition of marriage people don't take seriously. <laugh>, our whole project is please take these ethical principles seriously. The, uh, the mak <unk>, you know, the affection and the mercy El Maro and most the, uh, the, the occurrences of Maru and Asen, these two, uh, uh, values of two principles, you will find them the most occurrences are in the verses, uh, about marriage and its rulings or divorce, and its rulings. And, and that that is something to think about. Yani, God is telling us something definitely about application. The problem is people will talk about that, but they don't apply it whether in inter, in the interpretation or of course in their conduct.
Speaker 1 00:20:35 And that's part of the reform that you talked about, uh, Dr. Amal in, in, in the personal status law and the family laws. So these are the three main circles. And then, then we go in the second part of the paper to specifics, to the interpretation, right, of interpretations of things like the dowry, the, the maintenance, spousal relations, divorce, discord, uh, Matano. These are all the specifics that people jump to right away. And we're asking them, please look at the ethics, look at these different levels, and, and make that have a bearing, a very serious bearing on, uh, on the verses the air.
Speaker 0 00:21:20 Beautiful. Yes. What do you think the book will achieve, and how can we capitalize on the knowledge in this book to achieve
Speaker 1 00:21:30 More? Yeah, yeah. This, this is <laugh>, this is a very important and practical, uh, question because we do want to move to the level of, of, of activism, of reform, of action reform in all our societies. This book, of course, this is the, the second sort of part of the project began with the book on, on, on kma, which was the big stumbling block. And, and this is also very important. The reason we're, we're very, we're all very happy with it because it, this book provides alternatives because the, the criticism to feminists in general, or, or particularly Muslim feminist, is that you are deconstructing your, uh, um, you, you are pulling things down. You're criticizing, criticizing, you're not providing alternative. No, we are, as you know, we are providing new alternatives in perspectives. The idea of dissemination, translating this book, there is an Arabic translation by the way that is coming out, uh, uh, this next month and the launch.
Speaker 1 00:22:33 So translating, disseminating, launching, using it in activism as and, and training, as Dr. Nu was saying. I mean, you know, it's a document that takes time, but, but you're right. This is not purely an academic exercise. No. We want to have this as a document that we can use in, in activism, in reform, in having dialogue with our religious institutions in religious hallam also who have, who, who feel they have legitimacy and they do. Uh, but we want their, uh, uh, uh, uh, help and their solidarity to help put all these interpretations into effect and reform.
Speaker 0 00:23:13 Dr. Nora, I'm gonna ask you the same question. What would you hope this book achieves and how can we work further on, uh, disseminating this knowledge, uh, activating activism around the, we
Speaker 2 00:23:26 Believe that the root of injustice, it's not in reality, but in mind. Our worldview, for example, will give big impact on the reality, including how we see women's humanity. Are we considering, uh, women's experiences as human experiences or not, will drive you to treat women in just or unjust ways? And also what is important in mind is the knowledge system, including Islamic knowledge system. If you see woman as the source of fitna, for example, then it'll give impact on the fa that you produce. So this book, I think help us to change our mindset, how to see woman as full human, not only as sexual or physical human being, but also intellectual and spiritual human being. So don't see women as men's sexual tools or men's reproductive machines because, uh, we are full human has intellect and, uh, also spirit. I think this book help us to also change our, uh, Islamic knowledge, starting from this awareness of, uh, women's humanity. We want to translate this book into, uh, different languages, including Indonesians, so it can be read by Indonesians scholars and give an alternative interpretation of Islam, especially in family and marriage issues that give, uh, just justice, not only for men, but also for women, uh, as, uh, mother, ex-wife, daughters. And thank you.
Speaker 0 00:25:29 Beautiful. Thank you so much. And I hope that also our collaboration on, uh, woman of the Middle East Podcast, uh, contribute to doing that shedding light on the Islamic feminist movement in general, uh, and the production of this movement, one of which is this amazing, amazing book that would, uh, definitely contribute to changing the mindset. Although we say changing mindset, uh, believes that social norms take some time. But I believe that with education, with raising awareness, people will start, uh, listening to us. Uh, Dr. Emk, Dr. North, thank you so much. It was lovely to have you on Women of the Middle East podcast
Speaker 2 00:26:09 For helping us. Thank you. Thank you very
Speaker 0 00:26:12 Much. This is Women of the Middle East podcast. Hope you enjoyed this episode of season five to stay up to date with women of the Middle East podcast. You can subscribe and don't forget to rate us. If you would like to contact me directly, you can do so on Instagram or Twitter or via email. This is Women of the Middle East podcast.
