Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle east podcast, Women of the Middle east. This podcast relates the realities of arab women and their rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present the multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle east. My name is Amel Malki. I'm a feminist scholar and educator. This is women of the Middle East.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: Rolla Jibreel is a palestinian foreign policy analyst, journalist, novelist, and screenwriter. Rola is fluent in four languages. Italian, English, Arabic, and Hebrew. Brought Palestinians occupation to the italian audience when no other voices did, and has been a credible and respected voice speaking about Islamophobia, occupation, human rights, middle eastern politics, and more. Rola, you're a hybrid of, you have a dual nationality, you speak multiple languages, and in a way, you belong to multiple worlds, too. But at the heart of that old, you're a Palestinian whose DNA is imprinted with loss and displacement. I'm really curious to know, how did your hybridity play a role in who you have become?
[00:01:18] Speaker C: I grew up in East Jerusalem under military occupation.
I think most people around the world don't understand that in Jerusalem, we always been, for centuries, multiethnic, multireligious, multicultural community. My home in East Jerusalem was next to the oxen mosque. But our neighbors were the christian community, palestinian christian community, the older christian denomination in the world. And we always welcomed people from around the world. So we always lived as global citizens in a city that belonged to the world, didn't belong only to us. We were residents of that city. We were custodians of that city. And that played a major role. So when I went to Italy, which is the homeland of Catholicism, it wasn't strange. It wasn't a cultural shock. It was something I've been seeing all my life. During Ramadan, we would do the iftar and would invite our brother and sister from the christian community, whether Copts or Catholics or Protestants or Lutherans. And we always welcome people from around the world, not only Christians, Palestinians, but Christians from around the world, or people who came to visit the Aqsa mosque, who needed maybe a sip of water, who needed something. So our community was always on the front of welcoming the world. Coming to Italy was, you know, wasn't a strange step. It was a continuation of a journey of living in a world that is already multiethnic, already global.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: How did your palestinian identity get shaped?
[00:02:56] Speaker C: It got shaped at home. I grew up, as I said, in east Jerusalem, but part of my life in east Jerusalem was obviously living in Darik Tiffel, which is an institution, an orphanage that was built by an incredible palestinian woman, Hindal Husseini who's in 1948 she built an orphanage, an institutional to educate orphanse and survivors of war and it all started with one massacre, the Derry Essene massacre where she found in the streets of eastern. This is a true story 55 children, orphans who are the survivor of that massacre one of the first massacres as we watch Gaza now it actually reawakened many of those memories that I heard about that I was taught and I learned about them from survivors, first hand survivors of massacres in 1948, especially Derryasim massacre where the the israeli militias, the ergoon and Haganah and others stormed a village burned to the ground the village, while people were sleeping, killed and slaughtered and raped women and basically obliterated the whole village. The UN wrote about it even israeli historians wrote about it in the book 1948. So the woman who found in the street these babies, these children, took them back home and gave them an education, gave them a home and it's called daratifal, which is children's home that institution still exists till today. And actually that identity in me was about understanding our story but also what we can do to our people to continue our resilience and our survivor and what we can do to rebuild on what was lost I heard the stories of Dariusine and I thought a lot of these women who raised us where the survivor of Derec told us if it happened once it can happen again. And I always thought their trauma was speaking for them. In my lifetime I've seen dar Essene happen multiple times whether inside Palestine or in Lebanon and elsewhere. And the sheer impunity of the Israelis that continue to do the same thing with the complicity of the western world was one of the most shocking aspects and to think that in Gaza today there is 25,000 and maybe 30,000 orphans, children without any family, children who are mutilated, who are being butchered, who are being killed, babies in incubator left rot simply because they are Palestinians. It tell us that the war to erase us, to eradicate us continued since 1948. So if you ask me what is my palestinian identity in the west? It's about reminding the west, especially the Italians who had a fascist regime who killed Jews, deported Jews, had racist laws against their own minorities who are jewish. Remind them that their indifference is complicity that selling weapons to an occupying power is complicity that starving population and cutting aid to honor well, is complicity. My role is to remind them of their own history that fascism never stay in one place that can. You can be traumatized and you can be actual at the same time enacting fascist policies. And this is what we're seeing today in Israel, as if these days. Yesterday you had a rally of twelve ministers, cabinet minister in the israeli government. Some of them are Hakkahanists, basically convicted terrorists, like the security minister, national security minister Ben Veer, and others who were celebrating and glorifying their agenda, which is ethnic cleansing. And when you see this in italian television and american television, people accuse you of being propagandists, anti Semites, and all kind of names. But I think it's very important to hear, especially from people like myself, who not only live the conflict, but understand european history and american history, and remind them that their history produced the tragedy that we're living today.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: I know that you were a part of the media industry, and media and politics are a do and a dance, a never ending dance that bedazzles the audiences comparing it to social media and what social media is achieving right now. Because if there is a shift, the global empathy that's being created, the pro palestinian sentiment, I believe it's because of social media, not traditional media. What do you think?
[00:07:28] Speaker C: I agree with you totally. I think social media really basically made the whole charade and the delusional discourse, but also the propagandistic discourse about how Palestinians were so dehumanized and criminalized in the eyes of the public opinion, which has paved the way. Today I teach propaganda and genocide at the University of Miami. And one of the main aspects of how do we reach a stage where people are committing genocide, killing thousands of people without any empathy, without any compassion, that killing, the mass killing starts with words. It never starts with a killing. Words like human animals, words like terrorists, an existential threat. When you depict a whole group of people as criminal, as terrorists, as threat, as animals that deserve to die and starve and be butchered and their babies and their women to be left to starve to death, to be basically pushed to the brink of extinction. You understand that all of this cannot happen without reliance on a specific narrative in the west, so they can be indifferent to our well being. And the narrative is that we are not only criminals, we are subhuman. We don't deserve the same. So my role in the media was basically to compare also their approach toward the Ukrainians. In the case of Ukraine, western media especially told the audience that invasion and occupation by Russia was wrong and a war crime. Yet Israel invasion and occupation is justified at the same time, we're told that pumping hospitals and starving a population is crime against humanity. Yet when Israel does it, basically western world and western governments are backing them and enabling them to do so by cutting aid to a UN agency on the sheer allegation that some of them maybe were complicit with Hamas somehow. Yet you have criminal evidence by israeli soldiers who storm into hospitals, kill, execute in cold blood people who are on hospital beds, and yet the media shrug itself. So that kind of hypocrisy in the eyes of millions of people basically made the whole thing collapse, the whole ideal that America and the west stand for really human rights or really care about human rights? They do, probably. But for some, because our lives don't matter, our well being that matters. And what's happening in Gaza, it's creating a new doctrine that will be used in the future by many other dictators, by many other regimes where place themselves above international law and say, we're fighting terrorism in the name of fighting terrorism, there will be dismissing international law even after a court called them to restore humanitarian aid, to stop starving civilian population, to stop the killing, they will basically disregard it. When Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that not even the Hague will stop him, he's basically declaring Israel as a rogue state. If Israel wants to behave like Russia, then it should be treated like Russia. It should be isolated and sanctioned. And this is what you say these things for an american audience or for a european audience. And I'm the only palestinian journalist who says all of these things, both in Arabic and in English and in Italian. And I think it is incredible how generation after generation, we build voices, especially in the diaspora, people who can speak for universal values, for human rights, for truly our belief that all lives are equal and deserve protection. And none of us is free or safe until we are all free and safe.
[00:11:22] Speaker B: This is why your voice is extremely important in the west, because hybrids like you, educated people in Mediaev, especially that, as you said, this hate language, this colonial, imperialistic language, there's a huge and long history of first arrest, is followed by vilifying and dehumanizing the Orient, Arabs and Muslims, right?
[00:11:44] Speaker C: And we're all students, especially women, just to. Especially, just to be clear, especially women, because they're willing to accept some of the discourse by men. And I believe that we had a lot of incredible intellectuals, as you mentioned, Rashid Khaldi, Edward said, our generation also grew up by incredibly resilient women, and their role is underestimated and somehow undervalued. I also grew up in Jerusalem during the first intifada where women were the face of the resistance. When the soldier would come to our homes, our schools, to arrest kids. 14 1513 the people who stood up to them were women. When men were arrested and tortured and killed, women took over and rebuilt the next generation, educating them, prepare them for the future, preparing them to be the ambassador and our voices around the world. So I think it's very important. And they point out to, especially in the west, they point out to the fact that women in our region are basically treated as second class citizens or segregated and dismissed. They point out to Iran, especially at Saudi Arabia and the Gulf, and see how they treat women. They forget that the biggest donor for education in the world, in the southern hemisphere, is actually a woman. She Hamoza when they point to education, they obviously overlook certain aspects, but they shouldn't, because our women in our region exceed.
And if one day the values of democracy and human rights and dignity and self determination will be imposed on the west, also because the role women played in this struggle for collective liberation, and I'm talking collective liberation because they created the bridge with communities, with the african american community, with Africans in the diaspora. If you look at the Hake who were there, the shining stars on the Hague, there were two women, Irish and South African. The case was brought by the foreign minister of South Africa. I think women are our biggest assets and the most important weapon we have in our tool.
[00:13:51] Speaker B: And let me tell you, as a feminist myself, I know a huge network of palestinian civil society, feminist civil society, who are fighting on the grounds, be it journalists, teachers, mothers. We are talking about a critical mass, not just in Palestine, but across the MENA region. What pains me, and I have to tell you, pains me to the core, is the fact that when women, our women, are able to speak to the west in their language and stand and critically speak about those fallacies that are brought by the traditional media, the ignorance that is put forward by traditional media about Palestine, about what's happening in Gaza. We don't hear those voices here in the MENA region until this day. I haven't seen. I know I haven't seen a woman who was interviewed, for example, not interviewed because she's a reporter, not interviewed because she was a victim. Palestinian woman. Yes, definitely. They're victims, but they're also agents of change. We don't see the.
[00:14:54] Speaker C: I agree. I agree at this point. I agree with you, actually, 1000%. And it's puzzling for me because it's obvious on the ground and everywhere, the leaders of this fight, internationally and globally, are always women. And I always wondered why. I don't know. I must say that the only tv network that invited me to talk on the show was a lebanese one. And I am so grateful. It happened to be actually christian Lebanese. And I was the only voice among three men or four men. And it was a candid conversation in Arabic about ethnic cleansing, the genocide, the case, and all of the information that palestinian activists collected. You know what's amazing? Palestinian activists today, together with syrian activists and other activists, are the one that are collecting evidence of war crimes in Gaza and are working with investigative crime units that are Ukrainians and collected. But the activism is not translated into awareness in the public opinion and in the media.
To my colleagues in the MENA region, you're missing something very important. Half of the conversation, 50% of our activists are women. The people leading the struggle inside and outside are women. You don't want to hear their views. You're left behind. But this is in our region. But if you look at, for example, I look at positive examples, and I always teach my students about positive examples. Look at Liberia. They had a civil war. Two women galvanized the movement. Eileen Johnson and Lima Gibbodi. They will be on March 8, speaking in Dubai at the conference about women's rights and women's education. So we are willing to bring in the region examples from Africa to speak about peace and reconciliation and female leadership. Yet when it comes to matters of our region, we're not including voices from our region.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: It is sad now, almost four months of war crimes being committed against Palestinians, Muslims and Christians in Gaza, leading to a shift in global public opinion and global public narrative about Palestine. Does it really take all of those human losses to gain and maintain the world's attention?
[00:17:08] Speaker C: Sadly, yes, because again, I think for so many years, especially western powers, the United States, led by the United States, they were convinced that palestinian cause, which is a cause for justice, it's becoming the litmus test for legality, morality, justice, human rights, and everything that matters in people's lives. And not only american, African Americans or Latin Americans, the global south, but also there's a divide within America and in Europe between progressives, humanists, and basically people who believe that not all our lives are equal. And it took so many because there was a delusion that you can bypass the palestinian issue by normalizing relationship with Saudi Arabia, with the Emiratis, with the Bahrainis, with others, and then this whole collapsed on October 7. On October 7, three elements collapse. That Israel can maintain the occupation cost free, that Israel can dominate and sell armaments and weaponries and normalize with countries, because somehow it's controlled and contained. They don't have to solve the issues. That rationale basically totally collapsed together with a wall, with a fence that they spend trillions of dollars on. What another thing collapsed that Israel is. You cannot breach Israel. It's impregnable. You cannot touch Israel because they are the most important power in the region. Yes, they are. But also non state actors can actually create a lot of damage, financial damage, military damage. And it went back to the square one that without a solution, a political solution, the conflict will continue forever. Without a political solution, there's no military solution to the conflict. Without a political solution to the palestinian issue, every arab muslim state is in danger. This doctrine that Israel is above international law will not only hurt Palestinians, it will hurt everybody in the region, everybody in the global south, where we will be the first target as Palestinians. But you are next. And I am not saying this because somehow I imagine this. Listen to israeli security ministers. Listen to israeli security apparatus. They're threatening people around the region. And whoever think that we're saved, they are saved because they will cut a deal with Donald Trump or Joe Biden or with Israeli themselves. You're endangering yourself. When 95% or 96% of the Saudis are against normalization, how can you normalize without delegitimizing this yourself as the leader of the Muslim or the ummah? How can you do it? And even if you think that you can help Israel somehow manage the conflict and manage their apartheid system, you will be discredited. There's no one that can touch this conflict without major conflagration, without being hurt. So, again, is it worth it? And I know the people advising every ruler in our region are both Americans and Brits and I, both a lot of people who are very entangled into the security apparatus of the United States, I just want to remind them, all of these people are delusional. They did not predict anything. They did not predict Trump victory. I did. Many people from our community did. They did not predict October 7. We did ahead of time. They did not predict that there will be an expansion of the war. We did. They did not predict even January 6, 2020, the attack on Capitol Hill. We did. So whoever is advising you is giving you bad advice. It's giving you a ratted advice that will lead nowhere. It's time to look at reality for what it is and not what you want it to be. And this is the hard truth that our leader in the region need to understand and to start, examine and act accordingly. Otherwise, you will be betting on something that will collapse the next day. If you decide to throw your lot with Bibi Netanyahu and Bengveer and Smotridge and whatever israeli government, you'll never be safe. You're actually exposing yourself to multiple attacks externally and internally.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: Our prime minister was saying that they're close to striking a deal of a pause. But we don't need a pause. We need the solution. What do you predict is going to happen?
[00:21:31] Speaker C: Look, with this far right government, I think Israel is coming to an implosion internally between the fascist elements, the kahanist elements in government, who want to stay in power. They will use violence, by the way, against even israeli citizens who are secular, who, people who are actually more rational than people. There will be a moment of collusion inside Israel, and we have an armed militias now led by a convicted terrorist being there. This is not going to end well for Israel. It's really internal debate is now reaching a level between those people who want jewish supremacy state, an apartheid state forever occupation which endangers not only Israelis and Jews, endanger everybody in the region and israeli rational people who's like, what happened should be a wake up call, but also in the inside of the United States. Make no mistake, there would be violence again, led by Donald Trump and his white supremacists. And these people hate Arabs and Muslims like no. Ever. And if you think that your wealth will protect you, again, you're delusional. Look no further than what happened with a blockade.
Look no further than that. They will come after you as soon as you are not convenient anymore to their calculations. So again, the region need to create a coalition. So when that happens, when that moment of attack happens, there's a united coalition that can stand up to the thugs, the criminals in Washington, DC and elsewhere and in Israel. So again, there will be violence in the United States, there will be violence in Israel. And our region need to be ready and prepared. And I don't think they are prepared. I really worry about our people in the region. I don't think they are thinking strategically. They are moving to contain one crisis after another. And they think that paying lobbyists and paying foreign advisors to tell them left and right will somehow contain what's coming.
The tsunami will have multiple waves. One of the first wave was Donald Trump. The second wave was basically the violence of January 6, October 7, 2023. And I think this is the beginning of major conflagration globally. I really believe that we are now at a crucial moment in human history. This is an important historical cycle where you have fascist elements that will be united, much more united than we are, the progressives and the humanists on the other side. They are aiding and abetting each other. Look no further than what's happening also in Europe with a fascist coalition. Together with the american coalition and israeli coalition. There is an ethno religious movement of evangelicals and extreme jewish supremacists who want to impose not only on Palestine, on the region, an idea of a greater Israel. Israel doesn't want the greater peace or greater normalization.
They want greater Israel. So where do they stop? Because this is a threat to all of us collectively. And I think it's time to really start seeing what's happening and create a bridge to other worlds, african worlds and other worlds that can assist us in our moment of need. And I'm talking about us, our region. We're 400 million people in this region, yet we're more divided than ever, more tribal than ever. They really managed to not only polarize us, to pit us against each other, instead of standing united in this moment to aid and abet and help our people survive. We're looking at a global movement in the west helping Palestinians much more than our own people in the region. And it's really a travesty because anybody that think they are safe and somehow they're shielded from this wave or the second wave again, they are delusional and they need to reassess their calculations.
[00:25:37] Speaker B: I still believe in the power of the youth.
[00:25:40] Speaker C: Yes, I agree.
[00:25:42] Speaker B: What advice would you give the young activists who have been engaging with the world, at least digitally online, during the last four months, what should they do? Continue doing what they're doing?
[00:25:53] Speaker C: Absolutely. And look for the activists, the scholars, the students, all of these people. You are talking to the world. Everything is visible. We are in aquarium and everything is visible. Your voice is as powerful. And try to pressure your own community to stand up for justice, but also to start acting strategically all together in creating a global movement for our region. So the next wave, when it hits, whether it's Lebanon or Syria or Iraq or anywhere, we can stand up and understand how to activate all the mechanisms to protect our people, but also to collect war crimes and use them in international venues to expose the west for what it is, the hypocritical, the complicit in the genocide of our people. And I think it's very important to see how Arab Americans, together with African Americans and Latino Americans and the youth and the progressives are creating coalition to pressure from within the even Democrats to say, look, we're not going to elect you unless you change your stance on this issue until you stop killing children. And I think it's very important to, not to wait for those activists to speak up, whatever, but to reach out and create with them, together with them and amplify each other voices. One of the incredible things that happened with the ICJ, the International Court of Justice, that a lot of the evidence were provided by young activists, a lot of the hardcore evidence, especially the genocidal statements, all of that was archived immediately, provided, stored with video evidence, with forensic evidence. And I must say the Syrians paid a huge price, but they are teaching us today what to do, how to use the international legal system to prevent further masculine of Palestinians, to maybe prevent a total destruction of the Palestinians in Gaza. So again, we're achieving a lot at a high price, high cost, but we're not achieving it only for us. Just to be clear, all of us in our region are target. Every brown, every black, every Arab, every Muslim, every Christian Arab, we're all a target. Every Lebanese, every syrian, every Iraqi, every Iranian, every Saudi, every Qatari, everyone that speaks for justice, we're all a target. And we're all in this together. My message is unity. Let's create this global coalition between our people in the east and the west, everywhere, so we can stand united against the forces of fascism that try to impose on our people and our region and all of us. They're ethno nationalists. Projects of exclusion and racial purity that call us animals.
[00:28:55] Speaker B: We're all for Palestine and we're all for justice. And as you said, we will join forces, amplify each other's voices. Thank you so much.
[00:29:05] Speaker C: Thank you, Amal. Thank you so much.
[00:29:06] Speaker A: This is Women of the Middle east podcast. Thank you for listening and watching. To stay up to date with women of the Middle east podcast, you can subscribe and don't forget to rate us. If you would like to contact me directly, you can do so on Instagram or via email.
