Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast. This podcast relates the realities of Arab women and their rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East. Season five is a collaboration between MUA and Women of the Middle East Podcast, as we will be discussing MU's latest book, justice and Beauty in Muslim Health towards egalitarian ethics and laws published by One World Academic in December of 2022. My name is Amel Malki. I'm a feminist scholar and an educator. This is Women of the Middle East Podcast. Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast. Season five discusses the groundbreaking book, justice and Beauty and Muslim marriage. In this episode, we zoom into Section four, law and Practice. Our second guest, the author of Justice, refinement and Beauty, reflections on Marriage and Spirituality, Dr. Sadia Shiff. Dr. Sadia, welcome to Woman of the Middle East Podcast.
Speaker 1 00:01:01 Thank you very much, AAL. It's a pleasure and an honor to be here. So thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 0 00:01:05 It's a pleasure having you. Now, the question I ask all of my guests is, what did attract you to become a contributor in this book? Could you tell us more about this, uh, you know, your contribution to the book?
Speaker 1 00:01:18 So, I, uh, of course have been working with MUA for a while and contributed to a previous collection, uh, that was, that was edited also by, by, by authors and by the, the organization of mua. Um, and I think it's a, it's a kind of a commitment to a broader vision of, of Islam and of Muslim ethics and of gender justice. And so, uh, this particular group of scholars, uh, for me, uh, a very inspiring group of scholars, and I was incredibly, you know, honored to be asked to be, uh, to contribute to this volume, uh, because I think we share a common vision of how to imagine a different way of being Muslim, uh, in the world today that is aligned to a deeper sense of, or that attempts to be aligned to a deeper sense of justice and beauty. Uh, so it, it's, it's a wonderful group of scholars whose work I have an enormous amount of respect for, uh, and about a collective vision of, of, of building, um, of building something together.
Speaker 0 00:02:18 Uh, absolutely. Uh, now in your chapter, um, you forward the idea that for a believer marriage constitutes a workshop for human divine encounters. You consider how to cultivate spiritually nourishing marriages that are based on justice and beauty through rituals, contracts, and day-to-day practice. Could you tell us more about that?
Speaker 1 00:02:40 Yeah, sure. Uh, so I'm, my approach is, is pretty much based on thinking around how we would look at marriage as a space or a workshop for the self. Uh, because ultimately, you know, within, within the Muslim tradition, uh, a central or a foundational, uh, part of the tradition is to be thinking about what does it mean to be in a relationship to a, and what does it mean to be in a relationship to other human lives in a way that enables our deepening of the spirit, our deepening of the self, our deepening of, of good, of the divine qualities. And so I framed this very much in a kind of, uh, you know, in a framework of thinking through some theological ideas, which then have a resonance with, with relationships. Uh, and so I, I framed the discussion as, um, you know, as a workshop for spirituality, as a workshop for marriage is a space for refinement.
Speaker 1 00:03:38 Uh, and this comes outta a particular Islamic worldview that thinks about the nature of God and the nature of human beings. Um, and so the idea of <unk> of man's, uh, idea of <unk> extends and embraces all things the <unk> says, Los says also in the Quran, my mercy prevails over my wrath. Um, and so this idea of a kind of divine rahma is grounding all of existence, and the divine is essential way in which I kind of think through, you know, how do we, how do we then translate these into human relationships and then a human being within this worldview? And there's, you know, kind of a deep, uh, genealogy of thinking about the human being within, uh, various spiritual traditions of Islam as a constellation, a combination, a mixture, a uh, a reflection or a microcosm of the divine attributes. Uh, and so how do we align these divine attributes in the world?
Speaker 1 00:04:37 The argument that I'm making is based on tradition and based on the Quran and embraced, on the prophetic prophetic tradition, there is what Muslim thinkers would call germani qualities and Jai qualities, qualities of beauty and qual qualities of majesty. Uh, and, and really the alignment between these and the integration and the kind of balance in achieving, uh, a specific kind of subjectivity, a specific kind of personhood specific kind of relationship in the world requires a balance of these. And our indicators from all of the sources is that that balance requires more Jamal Al, you know, as I've noted the point that Alma supersedes and embraces all things, all of the Koran, you know, all of the, the, um, you know, the, out of the 114 chapters of the Koran, 113 of them commenced with a Bama. So in the name of Aah, the most lovingly compassionate, the most merciful.
Speaker 1 00:05:35 So this idea of <unk> as kind of framing the Koran so that even our approach to interpreting and reading the Koran is prefaced by these kind of very dramatic qualities. So in some sense, it's asking us to enter the Quran through this portal, through this doorway, through this window of rahma. Everything we read should be read and inscribed to <unk> our prophet has been called <unk>, uh, the mercy to all of the world. So when we read the, so now when we read the <unk> tradition, that is the portal to understand and to, to kind of, you know, enter into that kind of way of thinking about personhood, about subjectivity, about what kind of ideal person one wants to be. And the point that I make in the article also is that <unk> who was, uh, you know, the wife of prophet kind of commented that he was the embodiment of the Koran.
Speaker 1 00:06:31 Uh, and so what might we, what might it take to embody the Quran? Um, and, you know, the fact that he's embodying this divine message in his relationship to his wife that she's commenting on it helps us to understand that the spiritual life and, and, and, and religious ethics must bear fruit not only in the public sphere, as I argue, but also in our intimate interpersonal relationships. So I think what this allows us to be, what I call a ethics, soi ethics, is to nourish and to think about what does it mean for rahma for believers who are lovers of God, of the Quran and the prophet. We are inscribed at new, we are invited at numerous levels to bring upon ourselves and into our relationships, loving compassion and mercy. Um, and, and so the question is how, how do we then integrate the sitar marriages? And, and that's kind of how I frame this kind of approach, um, to be thinking about, about marriage.
Speaker 0 00:07:30 Beautiful. And, and, you know, following up on this, basically, in what ways could, um, <unk> marriage practices and rituals be more gender just inclusive and spiritually fulfilling for all parties? Um, how do we bring that into the marriage contract, the day-to-day practices?
Speaker 1 00:07:50 So, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm, uh, probably a lot of my, my piece looks to how we might bring it in in the day-to-day live, live living realities of marriage. I mean, let me first say that one of the things that I do write about is that the actual nicar ceremonies themselves, both the contract and the ceremonies, we need to be thinking about important and socially relevant ways in which we can bring questions of <unk> of justice. And, and for me, justice is integral to this balance, not just for me, but I mean, I, you know, I can speak to, you know, why justice is so central when we are thinking justice is the foundation of how beauty can emerge. We cannot have beauty without a kind of justice that is foundational to that. Uh, and so on the one hand, I want to, to note that the Nicar contract, um, is something that's, you know, that's the way which we might institute forms of justice and beauty.
Speaker 1 00:08:46 Uh, you know, in, in my community, as I write in the article, it's often the case that women are not kind of, don't, don't think very much about the nicar contract. They're not given the resources, the kinds of information, the ways of thinking about how to, how to negotiate a contract, uh, and the power, so to say. So that's the one part I think that requires a significant amount of work. And I mean, Muslim feminist scholars and other Muslim scholars are doing work on how we can rethink those contracts. But secondarily, and I think equally important for our community and for our imagination and for how we are thinking about just rituals, when we have a ritual, I don't know what the, you know, what the, what the norms are in the communities that you come from, but in, in the community that I come from in South Africa, it's not unusual for a, for, for the, for the husband and the fathers to come to the woman in the home, ask her permission, and her father would normally be actually speak for her in that case.
Speaker 1 00:09:41 So she doesn't even verbalize her own response. She's simply present. Then they go to the, to the, to the, to the maji, which is where the official kind of ceremony happens. So the woman is actually absent in all of that. And, and, and the question that I ask is that if we, starting off this very central ritual by women being invisible and being silent, it does not, it does not bode well for thinking around, you know, entering into a space of partnership, of mutuality, of justice and equality. So we need to rethink our rituals. Uh, and I think this is also quite different depending on the context you come in. So in, in our context in South Africa, the, the way in which we've been urging many women to, to basically speak, you know, as part of the contract, to think through what the contract entails, but to, to be an equal partner, if you're not an equal partner, even in the ritual or even in thinking through the more important contractual parts of that, of that marriage, it, it, it, it doesn't bode well, uh, for, for how we might think of, of, of working through.
Speaker 1 00:10:44 Uh, so, so, so that's, that's really thinking about the ritual. But then a lot of the article that I, that I, of my, of my paper in this book, um, is looking at how we might think of marriage as, as inner work and, and what that would look like. You know, what would that look like, inner work, spiritual work, uh, you know, a a lot of the ways in which we think about this, and I, I draw a deep inspiration from a number of teachers, and I quoted this work, um, the <unk> who was a Sufi teacher, uh, and who writes a beautiful little book on love. And he says that unless love is connected tok, unless it's connected to truth, to compassion, to justice, and to grace, it's possible for it to break down. And so in my article or in this particular paper, I speak about what that would look like.
Speaker 1 00:11:33 You know, what, how would we imagine, you know, so if we connecting love to questions of, of of truth, what does that mean? Uh, and and I speak to questions of what being in a relationship of comfort, of honesty, of candor, of truthfulness, uh, and that that can only happen when you are genuinely in a reciprocal relationship with somebody, uh, where you are frank and you can be unguarded and there's a space to be authentic. Uh, and so the question is what creates that comfort being comfortable in your skin with your partner, um, you know, that, that that allows it. And then I speak to, you know, what that might look like when you have truth and honesty, sometimes that can be harsh to hear. And so the idea of <unk> being connected to that truthfulness, so that one is compassionate in how you, uh, it mediates compassion mediates the quality of an kind of a sharp honesty.
Speaker 1 00:12:29 When honesty has a potential to become brutal. It's the compassion that holds the honesty with tenderness and allows marriage to become a space of comfort. So that's the one dimensions, and then I argue very strongly that justice is essential, but too love in this way, right? So that, and, and justice is not just kind of the outer justice, justice is also what you bring at the inner level. And so one example of this is, I say that when we in marriage, and one of the ways to be just to a partner is not to simply say in moments of frustration and irritation, and we all have that in marriage, right? Where you're perhaps seeing the same irritating quality happening for a hundred times instead of focusing and zoning in just on that, oh, this person is so annoying. Uh, justice requires at the inner level that even in moments that are difficult, we don't only focus on one aspect of our spouse, that we constantly see the fullness of who somebody is and try to bring that kind of inner justice. So you're not looking partially or selectively or biased via at this individual. You're engaging them with the fullness of who they might be and that that requires inner attentiveness, right? Um, and so, you know, you know, those are the dimensions, uh, you know, and I, I have some very practical things that I also speak to. I don't know if, if you'd like me to speak to that in, in more detail. Oh,
Speaker 0 00:13:45 Definitely. You know, it, it was very beautiful to read your chapter. Uh, you know, you speak about the rituals of Nika, and it's really interesting that it's very similar to our part of the world as well. Uh, and I, I see those rituals mainly driven by traditions rather than really religious practices. And for myself and for many women around me, I don't think we've even seen the contract of marriage, you know, that we've signed, you know, that it's, we've never read the contract of marriage.
Speaker 1 00:14:18 So, so <unk>, uh, Dr. <unk>, who, who is based at the University of Cape Town as well, is currently doing some interesting work, which is, which is not currently published, but she's doing some really interesting work around thinking through marriage contracts. That's not premised because historically marriage contracts are premised on Banika contract in Islamic law is premised on an a model of ownership. Keisha Ali has done enormous amounts of work revealing that in her, uh, legal scholarship. And so Fatima's kind of more constructive and creative work is to bring to the table other ways, you know, what, what are, what are contracts of partnership within Islamic law and how could you rethink, you know, Maher should no longer be, uh, a gift of purchasing effectively access to a woman's sexual, you know, sexuality. Maher could become, uh, if we rethink it very creatively and constructively could become an exchange of gifts.
Speaker 1 00:15:14 Uh, so I think we need to be really open. Uh, and I think this also premise is, is also related to a construct of religion. You know, we, we need to rethink tradition, not as something that we are inheritors of and need to take on as a kind of way of belonging, but also to creatively engage what, how tradition can be meaningful in our contemporary terms with our evolving sense of justice and spiritual alignment, and the idea of being in relationships of <unk> and of beauty and of justice and, and, and justice is an unfolding thing. Justice has never said what justice means, you know, for the kaha in the 10th century versus the 15th century versus the 21st century should be very different things because justice itself happens as a dynamic relationship to the outer, you know, the AAT on the horizon and the aat within ourselves and the aat in the text should be in a dynamic relationship of unfolding.
Speaker 1 00:16:15 Uh, and so, you know, what I'm trying to do in my article also is to foreground what those relationships might look like if we take seriously the inner work of, of spiritual alignment and inner justice and, and justice in our arter relationships. Because the other work, the other point that we are trying to make, uh, or, you know, and we incidentally, I mean, I don't know if you know this, uh, amk, but we have a, a book called the Woman's <unk> book that has just been published between Fatima and myself. We've, uh, co-edited and co you know, we have a whole bunch of contributors to that book, and we have a set of <unk> in that book, which, you know, engages questions very strongly of, of how to be rethinking in this time and the space. But it's also to say that tradition is, is constantly, has historically always been made in relationship to, to realities on the ground and must continue.
Speaker 1 00:17:10 We are co-creators of a tradition. Muslim communities from time in Memorial have always created Islam in lived actual dynamic, engaged, you know, spiritually alive and socially responsive ways, and we should continue to do so. And so rethinking nicar contracts, rethinking nicar ceremonies, rethinking the ways in which we engage with one another, and if we are doing it from an Islamic framework, we have to ground this, I argue like many other people in this idea of a German ethics, because that is what Les Manis describes, you know, a self as what the prophets of Hawaii is described as, and what human beings are supposed to be aligning within ourselves. So, so, so, so my chapter kind of offers some, some ways to be thinking about that as, as to all of the amazing other pieces in the book.
Speaker 0 00:18:00 Beautiful, beautiful. I really enjoyed, uh, reading your chapter. Thank you so much, Dr. Sadia. It's been a pleasure talking to you. And, um, thank you for your contribution to this groundbreaking book.
Speaker 1 00:18:12 <unk>. Thank you very much, Amal. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 0 00:18:14 This is Women of the Middle East podcast. Hope you enjoyed this episode of season five to stay up to date with women of the Middle East podcast. You can subscribe and don't forget to rate us. If you would like to contact me directly, you can do so on Instagram or Twitter or via email. This is Women of the Middle East podcast.
