Speaker 1 00:00:03 Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast, Woman of the Methodist. This podcast relates to realities of Arab women and the rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present the multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East. My name is Am Malki. I'm a feminist, scholar and educator. This is season three, conversations with young feminists. This is Women of the Middle East Podcast.
Speaker 2 00:00:36 Hello and welcome to episode two of series three, Conversations with Young Feminists. This episode's feminist is one that is a fierce fighter and a vocal anti-racist activist. Racism is not an easy topic to talk about. It's a very important one. Just like with the Me Too movement in 2018, that started from the United States, then became globally. Black Lives Matter of 2020 has also reached the shores of consciousness of many nations where race and racism weren't previously discussed, at least not overly. The Black Lives Matter campaign that cause for the end of systematic racial discrimination, has led to two parallel movements of solidarity across the Middle East and North Africa region. One of these two movements sympathized and condemned the practice, but claim that it is a Western problem that doesn't exist in urban Muslim countries because these countries are dictated by the Islamic doctrine, which is based on equality and justice. The second movement is a realist, one that declared that racism is pervasive and demeanor region just as it is in the rest of the world, and carries the historical baggage of slavery. And this movement called for exposing all practices of racial discrimination as a first step towards addressing the problem.
Speaker 1 00:02:06 This is Women of the Middle East podcast.
Speaker 2 00:02:09 I would like to touch upon the role that social media, as it has always been an a double edged weapon. It has certainly amplified that the marginalized communities voices among which is the black communities, by giving them a global platform and a global audience to expose the injustices and discrimination they face. But it also gives a space to racism and discrimination to be carried out, repeated and circulated as an observer of recurrent and top discussions pertaining to social justice. I I've noticed for an example that an overview discussion about racism in our part of the world was initiated by the younger generation, which resonated with celebrities and social media influencers. But with little participation from the ingenia, the reaction of course, escalated between proponents who called for exposing racial discrimination practices and called for legislative changes and social activism to change the people's mindset and between opponents who exercise denial as well as anger exactly what Robin DeAngelo coined and described as white fragility. This episode's guest is Hal to Succeed. She is an anti-racist activist and an intersectional found in January, 2020. She co-founded the Collective Voices of Black Tunisian women, which offers them a safe space for self-expression. It is the first initiative that addresses issues affecting black women and gives voice to their experiences and promotes research about their social conditions. She has a lot to say about her personal experience as a black Tunisian and her collective movement.
Speaker 3 00:04:07 This is
Speaker 2 00:04:08 Woman of the Middle Eastern Podcast. Since I came across your profile, I've been looking forward to meeting you. I'm really, really happy to have you. And this series, which is the third series of Women of the Middle East podcast, uh, conversations with Young Feminists. Uh, tell us about yourself and your work.
Speaker 3 00:04:26 First of all, thank you for the invitation and for interest. In fact, uh, working on and on humanism Indonesia. I started just after the revolution at 2012. I was on an association, was called the Menti, and I was really young back then, and I didn't have many tools or I didn't understood the topic world, but I had this feeling that I had to do something about it. So I started with this association and, um, we had many products on raising awareness because back then, uh, we were in fact facing the denial of the society because, um, when we started talking about relations, initially didn't find like people supporting us, but, uh, everyone was telling was telling us that we are, uh, crazy, that we are, uh, inventing things. And so, uh, basically our five first years were, uh, were focused on raising awareness and just proven to society that it really exists.
Speaker 3 00:05:45 So it was really exhausting in the beginning, but it, it was worthy because, uh, when I look back to the time then and when I try to, to, uh, to compare the situations, I think that we had a huge progress on this, uh, topic. So, um, so, uh, at 2018, uh, we had the law against all kinds of discrimination and racial discrimination, Tunisia, which was a huge success for the civil society. And then we started to think that we have to have more than one association and to have to focus on, on this topic, and we have to merge our work and to, to move from raising awareness and advocacy to something, uh, more particular. And we thought about having this collective black of, uh, voice of black Tunisian women. So I co-founded this collective, and, uh, we basically work, uh, on empowering black women.
Speaker 3 00:06:54 Uh, it started with, uh, with given a safe space for a black woman to talk about our issues, about the hypersexualization, about, uh, harassment, about stigmatization, about our image and our place in the society. And, and it was really hard in the beginning to be honest, because we are not, we are not used to speak up and to speak loudly and to abor our problems. So in the beginning, we didn't speak, we were really scared and we didn't have the courage to speak up. But then this dynamics, uh, were, uh, changed and we were really, really, um, uh, interactive and it developed. So, uh, after, uh, having the safe space, we tried to have some activities where we give the space to black women. So it was on two, in two fields. The one field was an <inaudible> production. So we have, we were writing articles and we are now making videos about our situation, about our, um, issues and about our alternative that we pose to the, to the government and to the society. And on the other hand, we had many, many, uh, virtual activities like heal healing circles and, uh, webinars where we discussed about our issue, uh, our issues either so. And now we are thinking about having another project, like a technical project where we empower the, the black woman in the south of Tunisia. This is Women of
Speaker 2 00:08:47 The Middle Eastern Podcast. Amazing. Um, such achievements in such a short time. You told me you began your activism very early and you, you were much younger, but what was your point of departure and what can you share with us personally that made you go publicly on ma on a matter that was long buried, says stigma to even talk about the ills of the society, let alone the marginalization of a sector of nationals in that country that don't feel a part of that, um, social fabric. What, what was the personal point of departure for you?
Speaker 3 00:09:22 In fact, uh, before, uh, before I started my activism, I was also in denial. I was, uh, creating my coping mechanism and my defense mechanism. And I always say that, uh, people are, are racist Indonesia, but I don't care and they don't affect me and they don't affect my life, and I'm strong and all of this discourse that we build to protect ourselves. But, um, I had a personal story where, uh, I couldn't, uh, get engaged with the white men because I was black. And at that moment I realized that it's not just words that you, we hear in the street, it's something that can change your life, that can affect you personally, that can make you really sad and really emotion in life. And I started talking with other people because we don't talk about this subject. And even if we face racism every day, even even among black people, we don't talk about racism.
Speaker 3 00:10:31 So I started to abor my friends and my family and to talk about, um, this issue. And then I, I, I realized that racism can take your job, can take your, uh, mental, mental health, can take, can attack you physically and it'ss not just words that we hear in the street when you work. And it's not something that we can avoid. And then after that, I started to realize that it's systemic. That it's, that the state is racist and the society is racist. And it's, it's, it's bigger than I thought. And with the years, uh, every time and every year, and with the, every development in my personality, I, I realize how deep and how big is, is the problem. And then I realized that we have to do a lot to face because it's so old to, to be clear, it's so old, It's everywhere. It's in all the areas. So I think it's, it's very important for us to, to relate that we are breathing the, the racism. So we have to face it really strongly, and we have to have many way to face it because it's everywhere. And, uh, since I, I integrated the circle of activists, I started to develop my ideas and to have my new perception of the club. This
Speaker 2 00:12:00 Is Women of the Middle East podcast. But the problem is deep rooted, as you said. And the problem with, um, our culture and our society is that they, they built it within the culture that you inherit that sense of inferiority. Sometimes it's harder to have this conversation with the older generation because they're fine. They, they internalized it. Was it easier to talk to the younger generation and have that collective movement than the, uh, older generation, or what do you think? In
Speaker 3 00:12:28 Fact, for me it was, it was easier to talk with the, with the younger ones, of course. And it was here for me to talk with people in the capital ints, because I'm from the south owner of Tunisia, and in south of Tunisia, there is a big concentration of black pi, of black persons. And I think that slavery left a big mark there. So I, when I wanted to talk about this in this, in the, the South India building, it was really difficult. And they were saying, we are used to that and this is our life and we don't wanna change it. And, but now it's, it's changing everywhere because, uh, because we are face, we, we are putting the light on the, the racial, um, Russians and to talk about in the television, and we have the law, so things are changing. But in the south of tmi, it was really difficult for me because, because I think that slavery has gone, but this, uh, link of demo domination and this, um, this precarity, uh, of black, uh, persons and their, they're, they're always linked to the white ones for work and for everything.
Speaker 3 00:13:50 And they don't only land. So I think that, uh, slavery was abolished legally, but in the icon economic and, um, and politics and the societal field, I think it's still here. So it was easier in the capital because black persons in Truness were independent. And I found the people who are really interested and who want to work on the topic, the topic, and who have many experience like mine. So yeah, because I think in the south of Tunisia, we don't even think about having relationship between white men and the black women. So even the black families, they don't accept that we
Speaker 2 00:14:40 Weeks.
Speaker 3 00:14:41 So, so that's why in the capital, I think I found many cases like mine because we had this opportunity to meet people and to help our own relationships. This
Speaker 2 00:14:54 Is Women of the Middle East podcast. Ho you define yourself as a feminist, right? Um, where do you place yourself as a feminist? Not that you have to, but do you feel more attracted to, uh, or supported by, um, Arab feminism? Uh, is there such a thing as black Arab feminist?
Speaker 3 00:15:14 Unfortunately, it's, I don't place myself as an Arab feminist. I place myself in the way of thinking as an American feminist because, um, deeply involved in intersectionality and, uh, all of these theories. And I'm really, I pressured by the Latin American feminists and their movement and their, uh, anarchism. Even if we see my two movements, uh, or the two movements that I'm, I'm involved with in the first is tna, which is really inspired by, uh, the feminist movement in Chile and in, um, Argentina. And the other is black of, it's a voice of black IUs women, which is really inspired by the theories of Andrea Davis and, uh, be hooks and all of this intersectionality. And I think, I don't, and all of us, we don't have a big link with the, the Arab feminist, but now I'm trying to place myself as an African feminist because I'm trying to connect with the feminist in other African countries in North Africa.
Speaker 3 00:16:35 We don't have a big link with West and, uh, East and South Africa. So I'm having this reflection lately, Why don't we erase a Pan-African humanist movement? Because I think that we are facing the, the same problems with, uh, the particularity of each context. But I think that we have to place ourselves as Africa, because in North Africa, we are not so proud with our African. And, um, and because, uh, for example, in Indonesia, they're always asking me if I am Tunisian every day because I'm glad. So, uh, question if I am Tunisian or not make me sometimes reule, my Afri, my African. So I think we have many issues to talk about, and our African identity is really, really important and we have to highlight it. So I, now I'm in the, uh, on my way of connecting with other feminist in other countries in Africa, and I'm so glad that I'm in DACA right now. So I will connect and I will have, uh, more opportunities to have more contact.
Speaker 4 00:17:51 This is Women of the Middle East Podcast
Speaker 2 00:17:54 Doesn't take away from you being a Tunisian by the way. You know, you have every right to stand up and say, Yes, I am Tunisian. You know, my skin color doesn't find, you know, there's no definition for a Tunisian. It doesn't see an Arab Tunis, an Arab white Tunisian, or an African black Tunisian on the country. You're, you're starting this conversation, which is very, very healthy for the younger generation who want to still be a part of that national right, um, definition, but at the same time, respect. Its hybridity. You, you don't have one thing or the other.
Speaker 3 00:18:30 In fact, we, we are trying to now to like have this conversation and twoness all the families know, uh, their origins or know, for example, that, uh, they are coming from a church side or a Spanish side or Italian side. But for the black person, we don't care because somehow we don't have this pride of being from, from another country. So this i, this identity issue, we are now talking about it. I think it's so important for us, uh, as to Asian woman to realize that we are more than that and to, to, to like, to focus on our identity. And cause I think being proud or or accepting what we are is, is really important even for, for our, for our fight.
Speaker 4 00:19:27 This is Women of the Middle East podcast,
Speaker 2 00:19:30 Definitely 100%. And you start, you're starting a very healthy, thick conversation about identity. Now you lead both domestic and international, um, fights and campaigns again. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, how is your message messaging, uh, being altered or modified for each? What do you say when you talk about racism, Tunisia and, and, um, North Africa? And what do you say when you talk about it internationally? Do you have one message or do you alter your message according to the culture, the mindsets?
Speaker 3 00:20:01 No, in fact, it's so different because when I, when when we talk about racism iis it's basically attacking the government and the state because the system radis me are facing every day. And we are seeing its effects on every fields. And now we have the law. It is good. We are so happy. We are so proud. But it's not Clyde. And, um, the law mentioned that the state is, um, is required to, to make, uh, a campaign against racism on the, the cultural and the economical and the societal field. Until now, now it's, uh, it has been three years and we didn't see any, anything. So our discourse, it's always pointing the state and asking for our rights because as the governments have discriminated, the black persons in Tunisia now, I think that they have to de discriminate them by pushing them from the margin to the center.
Speaker 3 00:21:11 And we, we, we, we are waiting for this, we want this to happen. And we don't see a big response from the state and from the decision makers. So when we talk in Tunisia, it's, uh, either for mobilizing other communities about our codes or, uh, to advocate for, for our rights. But when we talk in the international field, I think it's, it's more about how we will build our capacity and how we will empower ourselves, uh, as a movement. We try to, to learn from other experiences, which we try to share, to, to develop our ideas, to theorize to have concepts. So it's so different, I think, and it, it require different people because there is some people of the field who will go and, um, protest, who will track every mistake of the government, who will see, who will check everything. And there is other academic, academic people who will write, who will make theories, who will, who will discuss, and who will develop, in fact, the content and then our knowledge about our issue. So it's really so different. I think this is Women of the Middle East podcast,
Speaker 2 00:22:33 Talking to the government and requesting the government to make sure that the law is practiced. It's something, But how would you change the culture? How would you change the mindset? How would you change people who don't, don't understand the practices that have been entrenched in their system? They don't, they don't understand that this is racism. They don't understand that this is discrimination. How do you talk to those
Speaker 3 00:22:55 People? Yeah, Yeah. In fact, we try to explain, to explain, to explain. I think I spent, uh, 50% of my lifetime explaining things when I go in a taxi. Sometimes I, I, I want to have to take a taxi, and they think that I'm notis. And so, so they don't want to take me. And then I speak in Arabic and they accept. So I'm there and I'm explaining. So sometimes in fact, we communicate, um, communicate through social media to explain some theories, because in fact, even small things where even when people tell you that you are beautiful, and they're surprised, because normally for them, if you are black, you don't have to be beautiful. And even for people who say, Can I touch your hair? And they don't realize that it's something very annoying, uh, because it happens. Like
Speaker 2 00:23:56 It's not normal. Someone asks me to touch my hair. It's just not normal, right?
Speaker 3 00:24:01 Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not normal. So, so in fact, we try to explain, and that's why we started this project about having a video to explain this kind of small mistakes to people and to explain how we take it and, uh, what effect it has because, and I think it's something that have to be bigger than us, I think. And that's why important point in the state, because I think they have give like, um, money for, uh, filmmakers to have films about this kind of issues. They have to, uh, they have to support, um, the, the visibility of black people in the screen, in the tv, in the, in the public spaces, in, in, in the parliament, in the government. We have, in fact, sometimes I don't blame the small citizen who just assume or just think that black persons are limited because they don't see them in power positions in the, in the public space. So I can understand somehow how they can think this way. So I think we have our work to do our, uh, as civil society and the state have it's work to do because it's so big. And I don't think that we can make it on, on our own.
Speaker 4 00:25:30 This is Women of the Middle East
Speaker 2 00:25:32 Podcast. No, And this is why I'm thinking in tunes, we know that there is a robust civil site. You've got many women, uh, organizations, feminists organizations. Why don't you join forces with them? Uh, okay, I, I agree. You know, Arab feminisms maybe failed to integrate, um, Arab or, or black, uh, Arab's voices and experiences, but the existing feminists organizations in Tunisia should be working closely with you. Yeah. Said, if you starting from this
Speaker 3 00:26:05 Crouch. I, I, and that's why, in fact, I'm really inspired by, by intersectionality, because now it's starting, because, uh, before the, the, the feminist, uh, scene was so white. And, uh, when I say white, even I can, uh, it was really inspired by the European humanism, and we just want to copy this model and to put it in our society, we don't even think about it. So black persons and black women were really marginalized. And in some associations, I don't think that they accept black women with them. So now it's changing this new movement and this new, this new era of feminism, Indonesia. And I was so glad because when I, when we had the, the protest, our last protest, um, in T Asia, it was really a big protest. And it was this, the, the first time that other movement join us. Uh, usually we are only on our own. We are like for 20%. And we tried to, to raise our voices. In fact, it's new to join forces for us, Indonesia, because before, uh, every movement has its own work. So I'm optimist about that.
Speaker 2 00:27:34 That's good. That's good.
Speaker 3 00:27:36 This is women of the Middle East Podcast.
Speaker 2 00:27:38 Tell me, how can you educate the Arab speakers about the use user's language? Uh, the use of language, of course, reinforces and perpetuate racism, racial discrimination, given that we don't follow any forms of political correctness, you know, in Arabic mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, um, what would you say we could do to, to watch our language? Basically? What, do you have any
Speaker 3 00:28:01 Tips? I always correct gently when people say something attacks my, my community, Uh, and sometimes people refuse. So I make some remarks, but not gently, to be honest. So, but, but I think what, um, the, the tips that they have is that we have to try to change linking black with bad things. Because when we speak, we always, if we have a bad day, we say we had the black day today. If there is something that we don't like, we say that it's a black. And if we try to, to separate black with bad things, I think we, when we speak, our language would be less, uh, less violent towards this community. And there is some words who are forbidden. It's so clear that we can't, uh, we can't tell someone, uh, slave or I don't know how it's so clear, but for sometimes there is a small thing that we don't care about, but it's really, it's really marking. We had this a lot even in songs and in, in our, uh, how to say, <inaudible>, popular
Speaker 2 00:29:23 Media, popular culture, right?
Speaker 3 00:29:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's
Speaker 2 00:29:28 Everything. Yes.
Speaker 3 00:29:29 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And sometimes you can't even react because it's, it's so used by everyone. So you think that you are crazy if you want to raise, for example, we have a small payment in Tunisia, and it's called, uh, the payment of the Land of the Slaves.
Speaker 2 00:29:49 Oh.
Speaker 3 00:29:50 And I, I, no one want to change it. And we don't even, in fact, I don't even dare to ask people to change because everyone is losing it.
Speaker 2 00:30:01 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:30:02 So I think it's so, so important that we point this and say, this is what it is. If you want to change. Okay. If you don't want to change, but this is what it is. True, true.
Speaker 4 00:30:13 This is women of the Middle East in podcast.
Speaker 2 00:30:16 Tell me, you've talked about sexual harassment and specific, and I think, um, I see your work is, um, mainly at the intersection between the Me Too movement and the Black Lives Matter movement. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, tell me more
Speaker 3 00:30:29 About that. In fact, being a woman in Tunisia and in, um, Arabic North African country, it's not easy and being black either. So in fact, being a black woman, for us, having this combined discrimination together, it's really hard. And I think it deserve a, a particular attention because, uh, in the mind of, of people in Tunisia, we are assimilate. We are always assimilated to sex workers, or for people who have, uh, big appetite for, uh, for men. And like they, when they approach as they don't approach as the same way that they approach a non-black woman, because they, they think in fact that they are welcome every day and every night, and we don't have any selection, and we will accept anything. And sometimes I walk on the street and they even, they don't even call me. They just show me the money because they think I'm a sex worker.
Speaker 3 00:31:40 Because Indonesia, we have, they say that sleeping with a black woman, it'll cure all of your diseases. So, Yeah. Yeah. And they believe it. And I remember when I was, um, when I was a teenager, 15, 16 years old, they were asking me to cure their disease. And they were really serious about it. Uh, in the mind of the society, we, we are sex objects, and it's really obvious and it's really big. So that's why I think that, uh, sexual harassment for black women is the quality and the quantity. It's not the same for foreign, for non black woman. And they also know that the majority of black woman are, um, poor, and they don't have, they don't know people in higher positions. So they're not scared about attacking them, about immigrating them. And we know that most of the black women work, um, as maids and as housekeepers.
Speaker 3 00:32:46 So they're really, uh, in the position to, to receive this kind of aggression. So I think that we have to put the problem in the table and to, to give it its real size, because we don't want to talk. And even to, in Tunisia, they always say, No, all the women are, are facing harassment, but not all, not all the women are facing it the same way. And that's why, in fact, it was, um, the first thing that, um, it triggered us to have this movement of black women because they didn't let us speak about our issues as black and woman.
Speaker 2 00:33:30 This is Women of the Middle East podcast, but you've achieved a lot, uh, yeah. Such a short time. Uh, do you sense that this change in global consciousness, um, you feel, uh, that racial justice has become integrated in the global call for social justice? Or is it a temporary phenomenon? Do you, do you feel, do you have hope that this is gonna go somewhere? Of
Speaker 3 00:33:54 Course, I have hope, uh, otherwise I will quit everything. No, I have hope, because going from there is no racism in Tunisia to having a law against racism and Tunisia. It's really huge. And people now, they don't dare to, to say there is no racism in Tunisia, even if they still say it. But it's not, it's not the big majority. So I don't know if we'll move as fast as we did before. I don't, I don't think so, because in the beginning it was really fresh, and we were, and we gave all of energy to that. And we had facts to prove to everyone that we are facing relationships now. We are targeting the states. And it's so different because changing the mentality and changing the society, it's a long process. We know this, We are aware of everything, and we are not waiting for to see the results right now, because it takes a long time.
Speaker 3 00:35:00 But our advocacy work, I think it's the hardest thing now because we have to protect the victims. Even if the society will take 50 years to change, we have to protect people, and we have to protect the, the vulnerable, uh, community from, from, from racism. And that's why I think it's so hard. It's so hard to, to be taken seriously from the police officer. It's so hard to convince the judge that, that telling someone your slave is a violence. And it's not just to word. It's so hard for us to go into this system and to try to change it. I have hope, of course, but I think it'll be so hard.
Speaker 1 00:35:45 This is Women of the Middle Eastern podcast.
Speaker 2 00:35:48 Yes. But, um, you're, um, creating something that will be sustainable and will be, um, will have long lasting, um, impact for generations to come. Um, you need to tackle it on multiple levels. You, you spoke about, uh, knowledge production, and that's important. Uh, reach out. Mm-hmm. Reach out to people who can help with this cause. And, um, your course is mys as a feminist. So, uh, reach out to, um, uh, feminists that, you know, could help on an academic level, studies, research, but also reach out to institutions and organizations who can help with awareness, uh, campaigns. Uh, all of those things will make things move, uh, the state only. Yes, you have a law, which is good, but people's, um, practices and people's perception needs to change as well. And this, this takes longer, but the impact is long lasting as well.
Speaker 3 00:36:48 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:36:50 <affirmative>. Um, Hola. I can't tell you how much I'm proud of you. Um, I'm very to have talked to you today. Um, this is only the beginning for you. Okay. Of course, you need to be hopeful. Um, sometimes, um, we need to listen and we need to hear others' voices. Uh, sometimes we're just internally very occupied by our own. It doesn't mean that we don't care.
Speaker 3 00:37:18 Thank you so much. In fact, it's so reason to, to hear this after all the frustration that you are facing in all the fields. So I'm really, really happy to meet you, in fact. And I think that we will be working together, of course, because in fact, in our movement, we have like, um, we, we are six founders. We have the activist one, we have the, the, the artist ones, and we have the academicians. So there is this mixing fact. I think that we will attack more than one field I'm dating that we have, we will be working together. This
Speaker 1 00:37:57 Is Women of the Middle East podcast. Hope you enjoyed this episode. For discussion and feedback on today's episode, contact me via Instagram. For any ideas about collaborations, please contact us at wm
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