Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle east podcast, Women of the Middle east. This podcast relates the realities of arab women and their rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present the multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle east. My name is Amel Malki. I'm a feminist scholar and educator. This is Women of the Middle east.
Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle east podcast, palestinian women Voices. Etaf Room is a palestinian american writer, New York Times bestselling author, and entrepreneur. She has a bachelor degree in english language and literature, B's in philosophy, MA in american and british literature and philosophy. You are the palestinian voice of palestinian woman who writes about stories that are so intricate and so intimate that you know that these women can be the different faces of herself. How much are you in what you write? And how much is what you write is the story of palestinian women.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: Well, thank you, Ahmed, for having me. I'm so excited to be back. Your conversation last time really touched me. So I just wanted to preface this by saying thank you for having me and that I'm so proud of you and the work that you're doing.
It's really impossible to take myself out of my stories and my work, and it's impossible to take Palestine out of me. I feel like my palestinian identity and my identity as a daughter of immigrants growing up in Brooklyn, New York, really shaped the way that I view the world, and it really bled into these characters and into these stories. And of course, Palestine is multifaceted, and she's rich and diverse, and there's many of her stories. And so I felt like the best that I could do for her was to show up authentically and to show one of her stories through my own experiences as a palestinian and through the experiences of women around me that, you know, I've lived with and I've seen, and to try to bring those experiences to the page of literature, to fiction, in order to. To humanize us and to make us more real and more able for the world to really empathize with our struggles, especially in a world that really doesn't have our voices and in a world where we're not really represented in the best ways or in any way at all.
[00:02:33] Speaker A: You know, your stories build upon a long and rich history of palestinian feminist writings, like Saher Khalifa's writings, for example. Yet when their writings came from within, your writings came from thy diaspora, depicting a new reality that represents the second generation of immigrants. The story of belonging is at the heart of that story. Your story, and it's a very painful one. Right. What culture should you belong to? What norms should you follow? Do you have a choice in all of these competing norms? Can you talk a bit about that?
[00:03:09] Speaker B: Yeah. I felt like it was really important as a daughter of immigrants to talk about exile and not belonging, not just in America, but also not belonging back home in a land that's been stripped from you. So all of the characters in both of my novels really struggle with feeling this sense of unease both within their community and within their culture, but also in the culture that they're trying to assimilate to. And I feel like that's really the norm for many immigrants, regardless of ethnicity, but specifically for Palestinians who have not yet learned to acknowledge or heal their trauma, because that trauma has been unacknowledged by the world. And so there's this sense of unease and not knowing, you know, am I. Am I american? Am I arab? There are some parts of me that does not connect with american values, but then there are other parts of me that feels shunned by some more toxic arab values. And so I really wanted to explore belonging to oneself first in a world where we don't really belong to cultures in general.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Exactly. And maybe create your own culture. You're a hybrid, after all. Your culture, which is this hybrid culture, is one where you have a choice and what you take and what you not take. So there was a negotiation somehow through, you know, building your own identity of what serves me as a Palestinian American and what does not serve me. Maybe this, again, looking at novels and this is, you know, one of the areas that I'm interested in, how the representation of Palestinians took different forms through all of those years. But today, american Palestinians or western Palestinians or, you know, Palestinians, wherever they are, have a very strong voice in bringing all of those dichotomies together and making sure that this culture, whatever the culture is, the north, the west, whatever it is that tended to dehumanize my culture, needs to listen to that because I have something to say.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. And it's actually very important for us to be allowed to take up that space ourselves, especially when we come from cultures that tend to silence maybe the female voice or the american culture that does not give us the space or the representation and tells our stories for us, it is important for people within that community to take up the space and to take that narrative into their own hand and to shed light on both the light and the dark of those narratives from within instead of giving over that power to the western culture. Or letting fear take over and not saying anything.
[00:05:53] Speaker A: Did you find that space with your first novel? A woman is no man is a novel that I love. Love. It just resonated with me in so many different levels. I saw myself and the mother. I saw myself in the grandmother. I saw myself and the daughter. I was all over the novel, right? And I was really traumatizing in a way, because it's all about intergenerational trauma. Made me really reflect on my own intergenerational trauma. But tell me about the reception or the difference between the reception that you received after your first novel and your second novel, which I did not read until now.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: The novels were quite different. I will say so with a woman is no man. I was a baby. Like, I had never entered this world of writing, and I wasn't really exposed to much palestinian literature growing up. And so for me, it was a very personal novel. I wanted to use that novel to talk about the ways in which I felt the intergenerational trauma was present in my lineage. I wanted to give those women a voice, and I wanted to actually explore my own trauma through those stories because I felt very intuitively that many, many women would benefit from this, that, you know, that I wasn't alone in these struggles. And I knew that talking about the dark aspects within our community and within our culture, that that would raise a lot of criticism, especially because, again, there is no representation. We do not have representation as Palestinians. And so for me to, for the first time, ever have this representation and then use it and not talk about just the light and rainbows, to also talk about very dark aspects of our culture, including the stigma behind mental health, including, you know, the domestic abuse, which, of course, is universal. But, you know, we cannot deny that it is present within our, you know, some aspects of our community. And I wanted to talk about that. At first, I was afraid to take up space. We as women, regardless of whether we are arab women or western women, women in general, it's very delicate. They're not given the opportunity to take up space, especially immigrant, minority women. And so for me, I was afraid that by taking up space and telling these stories, I would bring more shame and dishonor instead of what my intention was, which was to bring awareness and empathy. I did face a little bit of criticism, but the amount of people that have felt seen from the work far outweighed the criticism that I was expecting. And I think that going into my second novel, I decided to take a more intimate glance into one protagonist's life, as opposed to with the woman is no man. The story was about three generations of women, whereas with evil eye, we follow this american born protagonist who is still dealing with the effects of intergenerational trauma. And the story is much more intimate. And I think that because many readers have already humanized Palestinians in their eyes, because of a woman is no man, that. That the evil eye just took them one step further. So I did not actually face any of those criticisms with evil eye. In fact, I felt like people were probably wanted more of a woman is no man. They wanted more violence. They wanted more domestic abuse. Not understanding that our stories are rich and varied. Right. We do not have one single story. And so, yeah, the reception of both novels have been very different. I'm so grateful for both of them that they both have allowed me to take up space and have allowed other women, through reading them, to understand the value of being authentic and speaking your truth.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: If I am write an article about domestic violence in the arab world and publish it, you know, outside that arab world, the first thing that happens, that it would feed into oriental images and stereotypes about arab and muslim women. Of course, conflating between both, because not all Arabs are Muslims and not all. All Muslims are Arabs. So even white feminism uses and feeds on those writings and use it against us. Whereas in your case, we're talking about double oppression, really? Of Palestine.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: So how do you deal with those kind of things? And I bet you were faced with that.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: That's the key word here. It's the double oppression. And so a lot of times when I was approached about adding to the stereotypes and the orientalism through my work, the argument was, how can you allow western readers to have more to use against us, not knowing that where we are as arab women, not only are we victim to our own culture, but now we have to watch everything that we say so that we don't look a certain way to the western culture, which is a lot of what evil eye, my second novel, deals with. It deals with this double oppression more explicitly. And. And I want to actually take the space to say that, and I say this a lot in interviews and in book readings, that western women think that arab women are oppressed, not realizing their own oppression, not realizing the system in which oppresses them in the way they look, the way they act, how sexualized they are, and the fact that they are commodities to this consumerist, capitalist culture. And so it's exactly by silencing ourselves out of fear of appearing authentically, that is objectifying us and oppressing us even more. And so that's my message to anyone who is afraid of adding to the stereotypes, whether I add to a stereotype or not, I would rather do it from my voice, my authentic palestinian voice, than allow the narrative to be given to the western world. I would rather show up and acknowledge the stereotype and work through them, because it will not benefit me or my community to silence myself and not speak. All I'm doing is leaving the space. I'd rather be in the space. I'd rather take up the space and add to the conversation than oppress myself doubly by removing myself from the space out of fear from my community and out of fear of adding to or giving more power to the western world.
But then I'm powerless either way. Me and my community are powerless. So I might as well be in the room having the conversation.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: Absolutely. I totally agree with you. And this is exactly what I say when they tell me, why are you researching this topic? Because you know what? I'm taking agency over telling my own story. And this is very powerful because I don't want to fight white feminists to speak on my behalf.
[00:12:28] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:12:29] Speaker A: I definitely don't need the west to save me. So that rhetoric of, you know, arab or muslim woman needs saving? No, not what we're after. I own my own experience and I am presenting it the way I want to present it. Hitaf, let's speak about Gaza. So the war in Gaza, from a feminist perspective, has been coined as a war on women and children. You have referred to Palestine as she. Tell me more.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: Palestine is really. Has been in our blood and in our veins, and we have been grieving for her long before October, long before this, this war on Gazda. And I've really struggled to sit with what's happening, to really understand how it can happen, because it's these images of violence on our community, of violence on the children of Palestine. They've been embedded in our culture and we've witnessed them since we were children. I mean, I remember seeing Muhammad al Durra. Do you remember Muhammad al Durra? I must have been like ten. I remember that really shaped my identity, watching him die on tv in his father's arms and nothing was done to stop it. I remember that really solidifying to me what it meant to be palestinian and how powerless we were and how dehumanized we have been by the media and by the western world. And so what's happening now in Gaza just solidifies to me a belief that I've carried with me my whole life, a belief that really has really shaped the lives of all of Palestinians, both in Palestine and in exile, which is that we do not matter. Our lives do not matter. And I think it's so important now to take up the space and to speak up against this injustice. Like, for example, me as an author, I was on tour for Evil Eye at the same time that this has been happening and I've been threatened for events to get canceled, really facing the repercussions here in Rocky Mountain, where I live, people have boycotted my businesses, all because I am taking up space and speaking up and calling for a ceasefire. You would think that that is the human thing to do, right? That's what you would think. And so I think it's really put into context just how delusional the western world has become into dehumanizing a certain group of people. I mean, as Palestinians, we've lived with this our whole lives. So what's happening now just solidifies a belief to me. Like, I've just been reminded that it's really important to take up the space to acknowledge what's happening, because everyone in the world right now, in the western world, is trying to erase us. They're not giving us the representation that we need. They're silencing our voices, hacking our Instagram accounts, blocking our Instagram accounts for Palestine, for her. We have to speak up for her. We have to take up space for her. Because if we don't do that, then there's no hope. I don't think that there's hope because the world is not acknowledging the trauma of the Nekbeh. It hasn't acknowledged it in 1948. It's not acknowledging what it's doing to Gaza. It seems so obvious that this is a war crime, that this is unethical, but yet no one is acknowledging it. And so we then doubly have to show up. We have to show up and take up space and acknowledge it. That's the only way to heal and move forward. That's the only way.
[00:15:52] Speaker A: I would argue that there is a shift in the public opinion because for the first time in history, this war is happening, unfolding in front of our eyes, unlike any other thing that happened in the history, right, where history has been, you know, hijacked, written by the powerful. Till this day, we really don't know what happened here and there, but this is happening in front of all of us. There's no space to say, I didn't see that. Yes, take a moral stand. And I would say that this is happening. If you look at the polls all around the world, their very strong empathy, but also solidarity with Palestine. You can see now, for example, when you look at social media, that most of the social media are actually pro Palestine. And it's not only us Arabs or, you know, Muslims who are talking about this, because, no, Palestine is arab. Palestine is Muslim. Palestine is Christian Palestine. It's all of us. Yes.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: What I 100% that there has definitely been a shift. And the shift is because we are waking up to the injustices of our world. We're waking up to the fact that we are not told the truth by the media, by our government, that this capitalist, consumerist world of ours is exploiting other communities and benefiting off other communities. And so, absolutely, 100%, there is a shift.
But not to deny that the powers at be are still there, adamantly trying to silence and rewrite the narrative to serve them. And that's when it's up to us to continue to persevere, to bear witness, because it could be really hard to do that. And disheartening. I mean, I'm not gonna lie. It's, you know, when I get on my social media, I just start crying. Like, as much as I want to be strong and I want to post, and I'm so happy that the world is waking up. Part of me still is shocked that we need to go to these lengths for a basic human truth, which is, why are we killing people?
[00:17:57] Speaker A: Activists believe in the power of people. Feminists believe in, you know, the critical mass that would bring, you know, rights to all women. But this is not happening, because politics is a dirty game, after all. But also, I'm hopeful that somehow the narrative is shifting. Of course, literature is a part of that shift. And through literature, you know, you can change perceptions, maybe not immediately, which is what is needed right now. So social media is playing a huge role. What do you think your role could be?
[00:18:32] Speaker B: You know what? I'm actually so grateful that you brought this up, because it is something that I've been thinking about. What more can I do? What has been my saving grace through all this is understanding the amount of people whose hearts have opened because of reading my work. So that has been, to me whenever I feel useless, because I'm sure I feel useless as a human being, and I want to do more. I want to do more, I want to help. And it's hard to get over that feeling of all this suffering, and you want to do something, and. And it's time and time again. The emails, the messages, your novels. I read your novels. I can't believe what's happening in Palestine. I didn't know about Palestinians. I didn't know about. I didn't know about the women's struggles. I was exposed to it through your stories. The amount of those messages, it reminded me, because you know what? As writers, we write in a bubble. We think, all right, I'm writing. I don't really know the effects of this, but seeing how important it was and how much it has helped to change people's hearts. Now I'm like, all right, what else can I do? Because you're right. The power is in the people. The power is in us. So, yeah, I would use these women's stories to bring more awareness, to write more stories to share, because that is really how this starts going. This propels more movement, is people. They hear stories, and then it gives them the bravery and the courage to speak about their own stories or to do their own activism or even just opening up their hearts to have the conversations with their families who might not see the world the way that we see it because they haven't been exposed to it, because these stories are kept away.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: You know, there is a bias called similarity bias. Right now, as hybrid as we are globally, where you see in the states, people of all shapes and colors, all we need to do, as you said, is tell a story, you know, from a human to a human. That's all we need. Rather than play on the, you know, similarity bias.
[00:20:34] Speaker B: Yeah, the similarity bias. Just even listening to you, like, describe that kind of. I had, like, this knot in my chest, maybe using the similarity bias as a way to confront our own misconceptions and our own delusions about human rights. So, for me, if I could only empathize with someone that has brown hair and olive skin, then what does that say about me? Or if I'm a western person, you know, just like it was easier for the western world to empathize with Ukraine because they were all blond hair and blue eyes. But they don't see the kids in Palestine and the kids in Sudan. They don't see those kids as real kids. I mean, that's where the conversation should start, really should start right there, because where have we come in society? Wherever I. We now identify ourselves by the bag of skin that we're wearing, because we are souls here on this earth. But unfortunately, we have become so individualistic and so materialistic and so nationalistic and so just disconnected. We are disconnected in. In essence, we are all human beings who, when we die, we are going to the same place. We are not going to one God and one God and one God. No, we are going to the same place. We could decide what that place is, but it is the same place. And so it doesn't matter what. What skin we're in. And that is where we should start. This is about Palestine, but this is about more than Palestine. This is about how we have become so selfish and so disconnected from the entire world and the suffering of the entire world. And the suffering. The suffering of one is the suffering of another. Maya Angelou says, we are not free until everyone is free. And when we start the conversation with, why is it easier for me to empathize when a white kid dies than when a brown kid dies? And why does my heart only soften for the similarity? That's where we should start. Because that's problematic. That's very problematic. It's not a world that we need to raise our children in the.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: And, you know, what's happening right now is a test to all of us. It's a test to humanity. Now, what's happening in Gaza uncovered injustices and the oppression and colonialism that has been going on since 1948. So this is a test for the world.
If we don't stand for Palestine, not Gazans, Palestine as a whole, I don't think there is hope.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: I have a lot of hope for Palestine. I have a lot of hope for humanity to realize injustice and to do something I do. But I also believe that if we don't. If we don't pass this test, there's big trouble coming ahead. This is kind of almost like a test for us. Like, are we just going to be silent and go back on our phones and go buy our Lululemon purses and our Stanley cups or whatever it is that we do.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: I really believe that life will never go back to normal. And. And we will make sure that Palestine is in every single story we tell, in every lesson we give, in every conversation we have. We're no longer going to play political correctness because you know what? Political correctness is a tool to oppress us rather than to give us the voice that we are. You know, that we need to tell our own stories. So definitely this is our chance to keep the story of Palestine alive.
Always, always lovely to talk to you.
[00:24:14] Speaker B: I love talking to you. You're such a force and you're doing so much. I watched your episode with Linda a couple of weeks ago. It was beautiful. It's so encouraging to see the work of my fellow women, my arab women. I'm so honored to be even in this conversation or contributing to it in any way that I can.
[00:24:33] Speaker A: This is women of the Middle east. Thank you for listening and watching. To stay up to date with Women of the Middle east podcast, you can subscribe and don't forget to rate us. If you would like to contact me directly, you can do so on Instagram or via email.
