Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle east podcast. Women of the Middle east hello and welcome to a special series in Women of the Middle East Podcast. We are in Amman in Jordan, and I'm very honored to be accompanied today by my fellow steering committee member of the Arab State Civil Society Organization and Feminist Network. Now, if you don't know about us, you should, because the Arab Network for Women's Civil Society is a coalition of 77 organizations across 13, 13 Arab countries. And we're here for a reason, although we don't need a reason to as feminists to come together to show our solidarity, of course. But we'll talk more about why we are in Amman and why we are celebrating a launch of a very important report. But let's start by talking to my fellow colleagues here and people who I would say first, prominent feminists from the region, two women that I look up to and learn a lot from. We have Dr. Fatma Khafaji, we have Ms. Randa Senora, and we have Ms. Shireen Jerdi Duxera. Fatwa, let's start with you. So first of all, tell us, why are we here in Amman? What is the importance of this event in specific?
[00:01:44] Speaker B: Okay.
Hello, Amal. It's a pleasure to be with you, actually, and with my colleagues. We're here in Amman because this is a very important international occasion launching Beijing 30. And as a network, we have worked very hard to produce a very good informative report. What have we achieved during the past five years as women in the Arab region? What we aspire more to achieve, actually, in the coming years. It was a very fruitful discussion with lots of representatives from CSO and feminist networks in the region and also with our colleagues from UN Women and to discuss the report, actually, and add to it if we want to add more recommendations to it.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: And what's really important is this report is being discussed and critiqued by the women themselves. So we, as Arab women from the MENA region, come together to uncover what has happened to us in the last five years and critique where the shortcomings were coming from. And there are areas that the report focused on. Can you tell us a bit about those areas?
[00:03:00] Speaker B: Yes, and the good thing is that there was so many commonalities, actually, and there was a recognition that the region, like the rest of the world, actually is witnessing a backlash on rights of women. So, I mean, more or less people were coming or participants were coming with experiences from their own countries and also discussing what can we do about it? The idea of working together, not working in silos, be a real women's movement or a feminist movement in the region. Supporting each other, having solidarity is the way to do it. We discussed things like, you know, the need for legal reform. There's so many laws still discriminating against women in the region.
The idea also, even the good laws in favor of women's rights are not implemented. And this is a serious gap, actually, that we have to address.
We discussed also the institutional aspect of, since we have, like, women's ministries in many of the countries, national commissions for women or councils for women, and we were very happy at the beginning of their establishment in the 80s and 90s, but we actually criticized very much, maybe they're not really as strong as we aspired them to be. And we discussed how can they be more strong, actually.
[00:04:34] Speaker A: So it ended with recommendations, basically.
[00:04:37] Speaker B: Recommendations, legal reform, institutional strengthening. Also the idea of the norms, tradition, misinterpretation of religion was very much discussed, actually.
And also giving, you know, some recommendation for solutions to that. How can we achieve, you know, and accumulate what we also achieve together until we reach that noble goal? It was really discussed.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: Doctor, you have vast experience, and when you look at the national reports and read them, and I've done okay, and some of them are fine, but some of them are actually hearsay stories rather than documentation of real life experiences of women. And we know that this is led by state feminism. And then you look at this counter report where women on the grounds are actually relating their own stories. There's a huge gap between both. And I think the thing that brings them together sometimes clashing head to head, is the political will of our governments. How can this huge gap be bridged somehow? How can civil society speak to the decision makers to show them that your narrative of women's rights and gender equality, which you are showcasing, you know, as your political or international image, is not what we need in our specific context.
[00:06:11] Speaker B: I think we've been accustomed very much on the part of the official people of our region to say about good things, achievements. And it seems like, you know, if we really frankly discuss our problems, then, I mean, we shouldn't be doing this. And this is very serious because we are in meetings, actually, not to say all the achievements, as if, you know, we've achieved everything, but also to identify our problems in order to find solutions. Because if we don't, then we keep on and on and on with our problems. So how can we influence our governments that civil society is having another narrative that you should really consider in what you do, in what you say. And all that. First of all, as I said, working together, because as I say, it's a power game, actually. So we have to be powerful. We can be only powerful if we stick together.
Quantity is very important. That's why our network is enlarging and enlarging and having more CSOs. Our strength comes from our large number. And also large number is not enough. We have to be organized, so we have to be very articulate of what we want.
Our criticism should be supported by data, by statistics, in order to convince people and convince governments that what we say is the truth. We also have to follow, influence the government. How can they see there is something in it for them also in what we do.
And this needs that we discuss, you know, together we come up, you know, with ideas of how can we present ourselves to our governments. Because if we want to influence policies, if we want to influence legislation, we cannot do it. We can advocate for it, but the governments are the ones actually who are going to do it. So we have to have a dialogue with them. So that dialogue have to be a very witty, intelligent dialogue.
[00:08:21] Speaker A: Now we move from the founder to the engine, the heart of the network. We are talking about Beijing 30. And your experience, professional and personal experience, brings multiple layers to this story of us Arab women, because you come from Palestine and you've been fighting double oppression in Palestine for so long. So this report comes in also a very sad moment in history. The genocide.
[00:08:54] Speaker C: Yes, actually, thank you, Amal, for having us here tonight. And definitely the situation in the occupied Palestinian territory, but not only in the occupied territory, but now because of Gaza and the genocide war that is now taking place in Gaza as we speak, and we see it on TV and all media outlets, is taking place without the international community taking clear measures or resolutions to end this war, which is inhumane and is not only war crimes, crimes against humanity being committed against the Palestinian people, mainly in Gaza, but in other parts of the occupied territory.
Having said that, also we're working also in the region with a lot of conflicts, wars taking place in different parts of the region, which also negatively impact the lives of women and girls in our region and makes life. Even the implications of the wars are different. It has a gender lens, it has a different gender approach to look at it, because there are.
It's disproportionate. It's often very much intertwining with the patriarchal structures in our society. So wars, colonial occupation, militarization are all negating feminism, in my opinion. And therefore the structure under which we're working is really very catastrophic in the real sense of the word. But at the same time, Palestinian women are resilient and they do all what they can because we think we are able to be agents of change and we can do. And we want more to be influential through being in meaningful political participation and meaningful involvement in prioritizing our needs. Because in such situations, women's needs, women and girls needs specifically, are undermined and are not set forth at the forefront. So we have a lot of work to do. And at the same time, we need to take that in the context of the general impact on civilians, with all the destruction and famine and even destruction of homes. You know, when you talk about Gaza, we're talking about 90% of the people who have been forcibly displaced and mostly in shelters which are overcrowded and, you know, intruding on women's privacy and on increasing gender based violence and so on. So the situation is so difficult that requires us to respond to the needs of women in such situations.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: Again, we can't speak about, you know, Beijing plus 30 without really focusing on a Palestinian woman. So allow me to ask you, you know, as the first Palestinian woman to address the Security Council, what do you think you've brought in from your experience that helped the organizations that you led as a team to be able to present and contribute to this regional report?
[00:12:15] Speaker C: Yeah, actually I was fortunate to speak to the UN Security Council in 2018. I was the first Palestinian woman from civil society speaking to the Security Council. Entering into the main room of the Security Council, sitting with governments, permanent members of the Security Council is really in and by itself a very important opportunity to understand the dynamics of governments and the rules of the game developing after the Second World War. Definitely I was on an occasion which is usually the open day on women, peace and security. And in that day, which is specifically allocated for that, I was supported by over 18, the working group on Women, Peace and Security, international organizations also working on the issue of women, peace and security, on mediation, on peace building and all the issues that we are being excluded. As women entering into the room, you see the political dynamics coming in. And many of the presentations after I gave my speech about the gendered impact of the Israeli military occupation on Palestinian women and girls, the responses were mostly some of the governments, especially permanent members of the Security Council, were more talking about human rights issues being addressed in a different forum, which is the Human Rights, the Commission on Human Rights, which is in Geneva. And they think that their role is to maintain peace and security. But what they are doing is only managing the conflicts around the world globally and not really addressing the root problems of the situation. Otherwise, I don't have an explanation why after, for example, now 14 months of genocide, war on my people, the Security Council is not able to maintain peace and security where the target is actually civilians. And this is really in grave violation of international humanitarian law, international criminal law, and all international law generally. But at the same time, this has given a wrong messaging about UN institutions and people in my homeland and many parts of the world saw the double standards and how the international community dealt with in Ukraine and with other conflicts in the world and how they're dealing with the occupied territory because of this alignment between Zionism and the United States as one of the powerful member states in the Security Council. But despite that, there were important messaging that was made, messaging that women should be engaged in meaningful political participation without us being engaged, without looking at women's issues and women's rights as a political issue.
You are excluding us from all life. And we have to politicize our cause. Not because I'm Palestinian, but what we're seeing in other parts. With my colleagues from the network and in the working group of Women Peace and Security, maybe my colleague Shirin would like to talk more about it. In all conflicts, what's happening in Sudan, women are targeted, they are raped, many of them committed suicide because of fear of being raped. Over 600 women have been raped. 14 million people have been displaced. So internal conflicts, wars are negating women's rights and feminism in the sense of gender equality and so on. So. So as human rights defenders and feminists, we always see the importance of addressing these issues with a lens of our need to be engaged in public life and political life.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: Definitely, definitely. The person is political. Shirin, an expert in women, peace and security. Before we talk about that and how you handle that, because the. This is an agenda that I've adopted only this year and I'm getting introduced to it and learning more about it from experts like you. And I have to tell you, this is a heavy agenda. It's an extremely heavy agenda. But before talking about that, tell me about the launch. I saw you. You were very vibrant yesterday and glowing with not just happiness, but you were very proud of what was been presented, especially with the women organizations that we had. Tell me, how did you feel about it and what was the highlight?
[00:17:10] Speaker D: Yes, thank you, Amal. I feel humbled first to speak after my colleagues, Dr. Fatma Khafaja and Mrs. Renda Senora, whom I look up to as role Models in our community as whole, as families, community and in the network per se. And I feel so proud that we are with you today.
It's one of the dreams coming true. So, regarding the launch, that was an amazing thing to witness.
Despite all the challenges that we were facing in the region, the genocide in Palestine, what was happening in Lebanon, recently in Syria, and with the whole region, what was happening in Sudan, still we were able, as steering committee, but also as members of the network, to come to this launch.
So definitely I was very proud, I was very proud of each one of these national reports and this overall report, because it gives you also, like a track record, what has been done, what needs to be done, and how we can move collectively to better enhance our role, our community, our commitment, and also to put the governments and the UN agencies towards also the responsibilities. And it was clear, we were very clear in the things we were mentioning, the discussion that we had, whether, like, at the panel or like through bilateral discussions, we need a transformation and this transformation needs to come from us, but we need to have the space. It's not about capacity building, it's not about empowerment. It was the way that we have seen our colleagues giving, like the summary of the report.
Everybody in the room was proud of their work. And that also gives you so much happiness to see that it's also a reflection of what the women wanted to see. I would say the most touching thing was for us all in the room to hear the voices of women from the conflict area, from Gaza, from Lebanon, from the west bank, from. From Sudan, from Yemen, from Iraq, talking about their experiences during the war, each from her own perspective, showing the impact of how the war stops life. It stops your dreams. It stops you also from continuing the determination or putting an end, even at times, to the plans that you had in your life. And this is something that was very clear in the. And the stories and building on that.
[00:19:49] Speaker A: You actually came from Lebanon, a country that has witnessed recently a war on its own land. We know that in Lebanon there is a very robust civil society. Women are bringing people together, regardless of previous divisions. You mobilized and other women mobilized to bring the families and the people together. So tell me more about how that was not more of a theory, but application to you.
[00:20:18] Speaker D: Let me start first with a ceasefire. Just to say that this ceasefire is a temporary one and this ceasefire does not include women, and this ceasefire does not have also a gender sensitive approach. So do we expect to have a similar result? Do we expect to have peace during? Do we expect to have really like an End to hostilities or an end to this armed conflict? This is a question for us to ask, who was at the table? Were we consulted? Were we part of the process?
What are these elements of the ceasefire? Regarding the war, though, like, the war started actually in Lebanon since October 8, but the actual displacement and this aggressive war was on the 23rd of September. And we all remember this Monday when people took it to the street, took them more than sometimes 12 hours to reach their safe place.
And this is what women were telling me. So what I tried to do, because I was working on a small arms light weapon and their implications on gender based violence. And definitely I told them, with the big bombs, now we need to stop working on these small arms. So with the big bombs, it seems like I had a discussion at different levels, at the local level, at the national level, and also at the international level. At the local level, it's the relationship between the displaced and the host community. And here you see despite also the economic disadvantages that we were living in ever since 2019, the implications of the devaluation of the currency, the loss of employment, I mean, all of these challenges that the Lebanese were facing, but still they were able to support the displaced. And we did not call them displaced. We called them our families from the south, from the Biqa and from the Dahi. I was asking them, so what was the first priority? The first priority was for them to be in a safe place.
They stayed the first evening. They had even no mattresses, no blankets, no food. They just, they were happy just to be in a safe place with families also disconnected. They just went wherever they found the place. And it was very hard because these people, they are generous.
They built their extended families.
They live in the same neighborhood. And they were just all of a sudden on that day.
And most of the people also, they went without their money, without their jewelry, without their support. So they had nothing to rely on.
So this was like the good relationship between the displaced and the host. So it was also the civil society at the early stages. It was the civil society providing the food, like the basic survivors. And unfortunately, though the government had this emergency plan, but they were not able to have it for all this, like, large sum of people, which it was unexpected to them, according to what they disclosed later on. People were traumatized, children were traumatized. I have a story with a mother who was telling us that her daughter does not allow her to have her pajamas on. She tells her maybe we have to flee at night. So she wants to keep on wearing her clothes, even testing the Weapons on civilians. It was not only phosphorus weapons, but different kinds of weapons that were tested in Lebanon. And it's proved so that was at the local level, at the regional level, also through the network and through the women, peace and security agenda, which we also have different phases, because also for the women, peace and security agenda, it was, as Randa was mentioning, it was an issue of trust. Also women in the region, especially in Palestine, they lost that trust in women, peace and security agenda. Why do we need the agenda if we're not able to operationalize it in the times of war? Why is it that we're dying and nobody is mentioning women, Women? Why is it that even ceasefire is not even being called by women from the north? And we saw that there is a lack of collective solidarity for women from the region.
So it took also time to say, but even if there is mistrust at the international level, even if international mechanisms are not being put in place, but we need to make it happen. We need to make women peace and security success. Because our lives, we're living in a conflict zone. I mean, like all of these governments, they lack accountability, lack different kinds of transparencies. Actually, I believe in women, peace and security agenda.
[00:25:25] Speaker A: You still believe in it?
[00:25:26] Speaker D: I still believe in it. And I will keep on trying my best through different avenues to make it succeed. So at the regional level, we were able to do an excellent example of moving away from the traditional trend that we used to have. Like our webinars, we talk to ourselves. We decided to take an international platforms webinar and we collaborated with the ngocsw. So we took their monthly webinar and we had the webinar called Hear us. These are the issues that we are facing and these are our demands. And you need also to be accountable. It's not only about the governments, it's not only about UN agencies, but also about international feminists. What is your role towards women in the south and women from conflict area? We did this. And at the international level also, I would like to say it maybe here, it's a bit disappointing to see that even women from Europe, I realized that even women in Europe, they lack civic spaces. They tell us they want to support us and they feel especially like they feel hurt, especially because of Gaza. They feel that their countries are also complicit, but they're unable. They say, we cannot talk. So where is democracy even in the Western world when it comes to. To people in our region being killed on a daily basis? Not because we are putting ourselves in danger. We want to live. And we deserve to live. We deserve to live in dignity. Stop sending weapons and we need to live. We deserve to live.
[00:27:11] Speaker A: On this note, thank you so much and I'm very, very proud of being a part of the network and on the steering committee with those amazing women. Thank you so much for being on Women of the Middle east podcast.
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