Speaker 1 00:00:03 Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast, Woman
Speaker 2 00:00:07 Of the Middle East.
Speaker 1 00:00:09 This podcast relates to realities of Arab women and the rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present the multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East. My name is a Maki. I'm a feminist, scholar and educator. This is season three, conversations with young feminists.
Speaker 2 00:00:33 This is Women of the Middle East Podcast.
Speaker 1 00:00:35 I'm starting a new, uh, series of discussions with young feminists whose work and activism are shaping the new feminist movements in the mean region. As women who have a strong feminist consciousness, regardless of whether they call themselves feminists or not, they are set to create a better world for different sectors of the society. Their driver is from within, out of conviction and social justice, embodying the ethos of equality and freedom, which should be considered rights rather than privileges within their communities and beyond. Their approach is intersectional and thus their plans are effective and seek impact rather than rare advocacy. They work among themselves with the younger generation, but also with different actors within their own societies, not, not outside them. I begin with an exemplary 26 year old woman from Kuwait, Nore Slayman.
Speaker 2 00:01:36 This is Woman of the Middle East podcast.
Speaker 1 00:01:39 Nore Slayman is the student outreach manager for the Enette project, a migrant writes.org initiative. Nora was able to identify injustices around her from a young age, acknowledging the privilege she has being a Kuwaiti in the Gulf. She made it her mission to make sure injustices faced by migrant lives groups and the region are addressed using the power of dialogue and shaping societies. She focuses on getting the conversation going as a bottom up approach to achieving change and attitudes towards migrant workers. My conversation with Nora highlighted many areas and her case where areas of commonalities between us and touched on many matters, some of which are the importance of mentorship, the hybrid generation, and what comes with this hybridity, the obstacles we hybrids in our societies face, and also the innate ability to act as mediators, the power of diversity and cultural exchange, uh, the struggle of younger generation and the generational gap and the younger generations take on shame and honor.
Speaker 1 00:02:55 Nora talks about her mentor, whom I also would love to acknowledge Vanny. Sara Wahi is the editor at large and director of
[email protected], and the author of Stories of Origin, Invisible Lives of Migrants in the Gulf. I reached out to Vanny, whom I also admire to tell me more about her relationship with Nora. Bonnie told me she met Nora about four years ago when Avani was in the early stages of the Inania Youth Fellowship. They were facing some challenges attracting youngsters and retaining their interest in Kuwait. She had traveled to Kuwait from Qatar and met Nora and other potential candidates. Nora was really young, and while quite aware of the issue from the get go was in a learning mode. What really sealed the deal was how she followed up with ban repeatedly with ideas, and soon took up the role in Kuwait. After a few months, Nora was asked to also take on the project in Qatar.
Speaker 1 00:03:56 She would have to travel periodically and manage remotely. She was able to expand the fellowship in no time. Vanni emphasizes that working with Nora has been one of the one of mutual learning and support. Nora was able to give Vanni and their work in general, a deep insight into sociocultural aspects. Van says, and I quote, I know she says I mentor her, but I do believe it. It would be impossible not to mentor someone like her who is a colleague and tireless in improving herself and helping those around her. She never hesitates to reach out for help or to express gaps in her knowledge and aspire to fill those gaps, which has worked a great deal to her benefit. Vanni also adds, and I quote, I remember at the beginning when I spoke of feminism, she would shy away from using the term or embracing it. I would joke that she was one of the biggest feminists I know, it's just that she doesn't know it herself yet a couple of years later, and now she wears that label so proudly and talks about feminism. I think a lot about mentorship and that mentorship is not imparting knowledge or even our own experiences, but merely getting them to see what they already possess. Now, let's hear directly from Nora Elam.
Speaker 2 00:05:15 This is Women of the Middle East podcast.
Speaker 1 00:05:18 Uh, it's lovely to have you and it's lovely to see, uh, a young woman like you, first of all, having a mission okay. And working so hard to achieving her mission. But let's begin by, um, knowing more about who is Nora and what is that that you believe in.
Speaker 3 00:05:35 Uh, first of all, thank you so much for considering me to be one of the guests on your flood cup. Uh, it's truly an honor and, uh, my name is No Des Leman, and I'm 26 years old. I graduated in with a degree in international relations and a minor in history at the age of 21. And I graduated at the age of 21 because I wanted to get in and out as fast as possible. Uh, when it came to, to my degree in international relations, um, I wasn't a degree that I chose. It was a degree that was chosen for me. It was a major that was chosen for me as my parents saw me pursuing a political path, uh, in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I always wanted to become a humanitarian, and I always wanted to become a lawyer. So, uh, upon graduating, I did not get a job at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
Speaker 3 00:06:30 Instead, I started working in, uh, with Civil Society. I was volunteering here and there. I wanted to strengthen my Arabic, uh, so I would volunteer with, uh, Kuwait University students a lot so I can communicate with them more. And I then met someone who later became one of my role models, Bonnie Sara Awadi, and she allowed me the space to put in all the energy that I've been soaring for years and years. I remember back to when I was in middle school, maybe this advocacy that I had built in within me, this energy of wanting to, as cliche as it may sound, but save humanity and, and protect humans at all costs. We were able to start a project which then later became in signing up. And, um, I am an, uh, a person who values humans, and I value ally and I value law, and I value history, and I feel like they're all connected with one another.
Speaker 3 00:07:30 I feel history explains what's happening today, and it's ever what's happening today. Both tomorrow become history as well. So it's very important that we focus on what we are presenting to the world in this instance, uh, because it will have an impact on what's happening tomorrow and the next, the next week and the next month and the next year, and maybe next generations as well. Um, I always saw myself as someone who was very aware of what's happening around them. I was aware of the privilege that I had. I was, when I say privilege, I mean having a roof over my head. I was aware of the fact that I didn't struggle when it came to food on the table. I didn't struggle when it came to education and having access to decent education. I didn't struggle when it came to winter. It, I didn't struggle when it came to summer.
Speaker 3 00:08:22 By that I mean warm clothes in the winter and ac in the summer. And I also realized having moved around a lot as as a child, uh, due to my father's occupation, I was exposed to a lot of cultures and a lot of societies that were very different to the affluent societies that we see in the Gulf region. And these are people who did struggle. There are people who, who struggled, uh, more than others. There were people who were better off than me and might view me as someone who's struggling. But I was able to sleep at night knowing that I had a roof over my head. But I still was uncomfortable with the fact that this was not made available for everyone. Um, whether it was through seeing people on the streets, whether it was through seeing just houses torn down, you know, when you drive around neighborhoods, even when you drive around Kuwait, there are certain neighborhoods where you look at the buildings and you question, why is this person's balcony broken?
Speaker 3 00:09:19 So they don't even have access to that fresh air. Um, you see someone, uh, having their lunch and under a tree because they're seeking shelter from the sun. They're seeking shade, sorry, from the sun. Um, I don't sleep worrying about tomorrow in a sense that worrying about whether or not I can provide for myself tomorrow or whether or not I can, um, survive tomorrow. Whereas there are so many people who have to go through that. I don't go to sleep worrying about whether I will still have my job tomorrow. I don't worry at the end of the month because I'm questioning whether or not I'm getting my, my, my wage, my wages, my my payment, my salary is being paid there, there isn't a, a date that I'm approaching where I'm worried will I, will my residency be renewed? Will my contract be renewed? Will I still have a job?
Speaker 3 00:10:07 Will I still be able to provide? And all of that falls under privilege. And it's not to say that you should feel bad for being privileged, but acknowledging the privilege that you have and the fact that it's not available for everyone else is key because then you can make the conscious decision to work hard in your society as an individual, as as an aware, conscious individual who make sure that everyone gets access to it. And, and it's not to say that they will get access to it by taking from your own privilege, there is enough to go around for everyone. There is enough for everyone. It's not a piece of pie where each one will take a piece and then eventually it will finish. But, but again, privilege is key. And it can be something empowering and powerful if fused. Right? I chose to be the person who was very aware about what's happening around me. And I believe that if each person did their role, and if each person did their job, there's so much that we can change.
Speaker 2 00:11:18 This is Women of the Middle East podcast.
Speaker 1 00:11:22 What strikes me is, um, how did you become that wise at 26, for example? Um, let me say that your cause was not, um, stemmed from the deprivation or hardship, like just like you just said, right? And this is something that has been used against us, against me personally, right? Uh, while you had the privilege to travel and study abroad. So why are you talking about those women who don't have access to education or are abused at home? Um, and this is used to undermine, yes, you are coming from a state of privilege and this, you're using your privilege, but you're using it to help others. The less privileged that the less advantaged. Uh, where does your course come from? Where do you feel it's coming from?
Speaker 3 00:12:09 I asked my family the same question, and it was at a point where I felt very overwhelmed because at one point I felt like I can't solve everything that I'm hearing about. I can't solve all the problems. And I remember, uh, this was a while ago, I asked my parents, Why am I the way I am? And they told me a, a story about how when I was probably six or seven years old, we would always go to this restaurant. It was a Persian restaurant in, in Vienna. And I would overorder food and I don't touch it. And I would ask for it to be retake away. And then my parents would realize that I'm taking this food. Because on our way walking into the restaurant, I realized I saw that there was someone outside who was asking for money. So someone less fortunate, uh, or someone who did not have access to a meal maybe is trying to save up that money to buy that meal.
Speaker 3 00:13:00 So it was just because I noticed that it was six, seven years old. Um, amazing noticing that walking in, I wanted to do something walking out. I couldn't just ignore it. Um, another thing is, is the household that I was raised in, we, again, having lived abroad for seven years, it was just the five of us. And being just five people, there wasn't, uh, there weren't many interruptions. Um, when it came to how my parents raised us, because there raised us away from the affluent, privileged society that is seen in the Gulf. We were raised in, in, we, we spent four years in Vienna and then three years in China. Completely different places. And you can see people of all, of all classes, of all levels and of all lifestyles as well. So we were taught to appreciate all that is different from us, whether it be a job, whether it be a culture, whether it be a religion, whether it be, uh, a race.
Speaker 3 00:14:01 And that appreciation was, it traveled with us, and it grew with us. So when I came back here and growing up here after graduating high school and throughout university, I realized that this diversity was not appreciated. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the lack of appreciation for that diversity came in so many forms, uh, shapes and forms. It came at a legal level. So there was discrimination when it came to policies. It came at a social level. So there was discrimination when it came to different classes within society, viewing those that are quote different as less than them. Uh, the same respect that I saw for, uh, for example, a janitor abroad did not exist in a lot of places that I saw that I was here. And I, and I asked the question of, you know, what makes us better? And I genuinely believe, and this is something that I got from my parents, what makes me better is not my degree.
Speaker 3 00:14:59 What makes me better is not what I own. What makes me better is not my car. What makes me better is definitely how I carry myself as an individual, how I treat others, and how I make sure that when there is something wrong, I do as much as I can about it. What makes me better is being able to be accepting of others, what makes me better, Being able to be tolerant. You know, we, we treat differences as being attacked on our own identities, but they're not attacks on our own identities. It's just difference. Imagine if the whole world was the same, that's boring. You know, no one wants that. Simply put, definitely, uh, how my parents treat that. Um, and being very, very exposed to, uh, diverse backgrounds and people at a young age. Another factor is, and I do, I do have to say that cause I just, uh, remember that, uh, my mom is not Kuwaiti.
Speaker 3 00:16:03 So my mom is originally Jordanian. Uh, so again, traveling back and forth between Kuwait and Jordan, um, you can see drastic differences between, um, you know, the, the labor for, uh, people who are working, the societies, the culture. And there, there is a lot of respect for so many different jobs that we tend to look down at. Here's, you know, here's, I don't want to work in this job. Not to criticize people in the Gulf, but to encourage them to ask themselves that question of why am I looking down at this occupation when I know that I am benefiting from this occupation? I need that person to do that role. Like my superior needs me to do my role, and my superiors superior needs them to do their roles. So we all do need each other. So why is, why do we find it hard sometimes to, to disrespect one another or to be little one another and not generalizing at all? There is a lot of people here that are very accepting and very open and very respectful of one another, but I think that us versus them or wanting to, you know, uh, put ourselves in a, in a bubble,
Speaker 1 00:17:19 I was gonna say, you know, uh, regardless of everything around you, it goes back to your soul. Um, and you have a giving soul to begin with. But now that you told me that your mom is not, uh, uh, cowa, sorry, you're a hybrid, and I have my own theory about high re because I am one <laugh> and I've seen it. I've seen it multiple. Yeah. Right, Exactly. And because we've always been in the middle, right? And each culture kind of, uh, looked down upon us that we're not complete. So you're not a pure Qatari and that Jordanian or, you know, in my case, Lebanese slash pale, you're not a pure Lebanese. Um, but at the same time, you had insights towards those cultures. You see it as it is, and you are the best mediator between your culture and other cultures. And this is why we excel in humanitarian work. We excel in bringing people together. So that's a theory that I'm developing, but I see it, to say the truth very clearly, <laugh>,
Speaker 3 00:18:18 I agree to be honest. And it's, and, and it, it's, what's interesting is actually my, my mom, because my mom got married when she was very young, so she was 18 years old, and when she came to Kuwait in 1991, it was right after the invasion. It was right after the liberation of Kuwait. And so as a Jordanian coming to Kuwait, not having, So my mom was not, uh, part of the Jordanians who had family here, or she's originally Palestinian, but part of the Jordanians who had family here. So it was just her, an 18 year old who was here, and she made it her life mission to learn every bit of the Kuwaiti culture and dialects and traditions, because she saw that there was, there was very clear racism that existed. And she said, You know, when I have children one day, I don't want them to face that we were not allowed to speak in a dialect that was not Kuwaiti. We were only allowed to speak Kuwaiti, even with our aunts and uncles from Jordan. We were only allowed to speak Kuwaiti because she didn't want us to have quote unquote broken Kuwaiti. Which, which might be viewed as, like you said, you know, we're not fully, but that's, that doesn't, how do you measure that? You know, at the end of the day, we, we moved out of Kuwait very young, and we all ended up not speaking Arabic until we grew up.
Speaker 1 00:19:35 So there
Speaker 3 00:19:37 Was, there was a counter counterproductive, but it saddens me that my, my mom, an 18 year old had to see that and had to make that decision.
Speaker 1 00:19:46 No, but you know, think about it. This is what happens with, um, Arabs or Muslims who go to the West, Total assembly. First of all, we're all post-colonial society, right? So we were built on, um, structures of privilege, and those structure of privilege existed before we became states. And it was, uh, imported by the colo, you know, by colonialism, but it was really integrated in our systems. And then populism came about where yes, we had to have a clear identity of, you know, decolonizing who we are, But it wasn't against, um, unfortunately against the British, like what happened, for example, in North Africa that they had to deco decolonize against the French. So there was revival of Arabic. What we did is among ourselves, so it was right. So tribalism, we retreated to very small forms of i, uh, identity and identity structure. And they're all re imagined, really. You know, we imagine, and really imagine who we are,
Speaker 3 00:20:46 There's this fear of bringing in other, other cultures, bringing in other, but is, is it fear from the culture or is it fear from developing? Do you, do we not want to develop as individuals? Do we not want to see the world? We're always already to travel. We're always already to, you know, go to all these different countries. But are we learning when we go to these countries, are we learning their cultures? Are we learning their traditions? Are we learning all of these things? Or are we just going to have a vacation, enjoy their areas and then come back Yeah. And enjoy their space, invade their space, and then come back And then we're just back to square one. Well,
Speaker 1 00:21:25 How do you define yourself and what do you say? Do you say, I'm a feminist, for example, Do you say I'm a social justice defender? Who is Nora within that line of work that she does?
Speaker 3 00:21:37 I can't say that I define myself as anything because I'm ever changing and constantly growing from opportunities that come my way. My refusal to define myself has allowed me a fluid journey to personal development in which the work I was doing and the moral done ethics that guided me were not to match up to I label standards, but my genuine belief that it was the right thing to do. That's not to say that defining as something is not important, it definitely is for many, it guides them and for others, it's what inspires them. If I have to choose a term that would best define me in my line of work, it would be an advocate. Being an advocate doesn't mean waiting to advocate for something that is happening to you personally or is personally affecting you. But instead to be able to do it regardless of that,
Speaker 1 00:22:21 Knowing
Speaker 3 00:22:22 That someone out there is not provided a safe just and fair life should be a good enough reason for you to want to do something about this. Acknowledging the privilege I have, being a Kuwaiti living in my country, or a Kuwaiti in the Gulf, I've made it my mission to always speak up against injustices and abuses happening around me, to other groups within my society, specifically migrant workers. The hope that I have is that I will speak on behalf of them. I will allow them, I will provide them that platform to speak until the day comes where they can advocate for themselves. Fear free. If I had to share a term that was used to define me, it would be a feminist. The feminist was within, was so evident to my friends and coworkers before it was ever to me. I was quick to learn that I was also fighting the battles of intersectionality, access to equal opportunities, and putting an end to the power abuses that result from our patriarchal societies. The only difference was that I didn't use the term to lead me, but instead to support me. That's how I would define myself.
Speaker 1 00:23:25 Amazing, amazing. I love it. This is Woman of
Speaker 3 00:23:30 The Middle
Speaker 1 00:23:30 East in Hot Cap. You know how much I admire and respect younger generation of men and women. That's a generation that I actually taught. This is the age that I taught up to. I think my first class now would be around 36. Um, and I'm usually in, uh, close contact with them and can relate to them. How do you explain your generation's commitment to social justice? And, you know, whatever social justice mean, uh, means to them.
Speaker 3 00:23:59 I think if given the opportunity, our generation can do wonders if given the space. Our generation can do wonders. We are thinkers, we are innovators. We are not afraid to step into untouched territories. We are the ones who would expand way beyond our, our, the borders within, or the borders that society has created for us. It's not to say that older generations did not do that, but I see us as being fearless. We are willing to, to go into these spaces that might seem dark, but have a lot to offer when it comes to social justice issues. It's usually our generation that I see speaking for justice without involving the nationality, without involving the gender, without involving, uh, the religion, but instead focusing on the fact that this is a human that we are dealing with. This is an individual that we are dealing with, but unfortunately, there are times where our generation is viewed as being incapable to a young, uh, not well knowledged, not well experienced.
Speaker 3 00:25:16 And I don't know if it's because, for example, in our societies, we don't have the social practice of when you are 18 years old, you leave your health and you are an adult. You can go venture out in this world on your own, and you create opportunities for your own and you grow on your own. Instead, in our society, it's very rare that someone leaves their house at, at a young age of 18, and instead is within their family's household until, until marriage maybe, or even after that is still within their family's household. So we're, we're usually viewed as young, um, kids, um, that the older generations or our parents or even older that they know better. And when it's policy makers and the decision makers are from that generation, then we are not listened to as much as we wish we could be. It's usually our generation who have created all of these movements and have spoken out against topics that were viewed as, as you untouched, you, you should not, you don't speak about them.
Speaker 3 00:26:20 They bring shame if you speak about them. For example, uh, there is, uh, a, uh, an accounts in Kuwait or a group in Kuwait called Len Eski, and they spoke about sexual harassment. They spoke about physical harassment that is faced by young women and within our society and in our society. If, if left to the older generation, you don't speak about these things, but we made sure that we did, we made sure that these stories went out. And it has nothing to do with shame. If anything, it has everything to do with courage and power to be able to take that step forward and speak up against something that has either happened to you personally or happen to someone within your society. We don't do it out of greed. Our social justice, I think is, and, and I'm going to focus just on on Kuwait for now.
Speaker 3 00:27:12 When I, when I speak to people who are advocates or when I speak to people who have led organizations or led movements of social media, they don't do it for greed. I don't see them doing it for the fame, I don't see them doing it for self benefits. Um, they do it because they genuinely feel like this is the time for us to do it. And if it's not the time, it's long overdue. So simply put, I think our generation is resilient. We are fighters and we are not scared and we're not held back by, by customs, by culture, by things that might have gotten in the way. Not to say that culture and customs are are bad or that they're negative, but if you see them holding you back from doing the right thing, what you genuinely believe is the right thing, maybe put it at to the side a little bit, focus on doing the right thing and then see how culture can be brought into what you are saying or what you're fighting for.
Speaker 1 00:28:10 This is Women of
Speaker 3 00:28:12 The Middle East
Speaker 1 00:28:12 Podcast.
Speaker 1 00:28:13 Besides admire your generation, I would, I vouch and I would bet on your generation, you know what? Especially post covid, uh, I think, um, uh, we will need your skills. We will need your abilities. Uh, I don't think we will be able to survive without the younger generation. And I see how, um, you're not given the chance. This is definitely, uh, something that, and although the biggest percentage of population and especially the Gulf area, um, is under a 25 years old, speaking about society and our societies is okay that we love, and if we don't love, we wouldn't even work within those societies, right? If, if we wanted fame or if we wanted, um, outcome, uh, tangible quick outcomes, we would not work within our societies. Uh, working within our societies is risky. Uh, sometimes, um, they don't offer us protection as women. Sometimes they're harsh on us.
Speaker 1 00:29:13 We love our societies and we want to work to, to, to make them better. Um, for example, um, uh, when I was your age, let's say, um, women had limited social and public roles, right? A woman's responsibility was solidly to pass nationality, maintain the lineage, as well as reserved traditions. Through her sacred role of reproduction, one major, uh, uh, role that women were forced to play was to, uh, maintain a certain image, um, uh, of a society. Uh, the, the fake cohesion of a society, the facade of all this perfect. Uh, you cannot complain, you cannot speak about the ELs of a society or society are based on honor and shame, right? You cannot shame the society by touching what they perceive as honor. And thus, you know, we couldn't speak about domestic violence. We couldn't even speak about, uh, the stigma associated with divorce, Uh, and many, many other issues. Of course. How do you mitigate between those social norms and expectations and working on the issues that you
Speaker 3 00:30:24 Work on? The main issue that I work on is migrant workers and domestic workers, a lot of which are females. You, you mentioned something very important, and it's, uh, our society. Yes, we love our society, and if anything, we should be doing this out of love for our countries, for our societies and out of love and, and dedication to wanting to empower one another. And the hardest thing that I faced when it came to, to social norms or expectations is that not enough people spoke about domestic workers. Not enough people spoke about them as being independent individuals. Um, and a lot of it was to do with the fact that, again, in our society, a lot of women are restricted. A lot of women are, are, uh, under the, the guardianship or, or, uh, or quote unquote, like somewhat control of, of a male, whether it's an older brother, whether it's a father.
Speaker 3 00:31:22 And unfortunately, we, a lot of people tend to pass that behavior onto domestic workers within their households. And when we talk about giving domestic, when we advocate, giving domestic workers their right, their right to a day off their right to a cell phone, their their rights to an intimate relationship as, as a woman, you know, and, and as a woman who is very far away from her family, immediately the responses are what if she gets pregnant? What if she runs off? What if she goes to a place that we don't want her to go to? But my response is what this yani, if if this individual made the conscious decision to get pregnant out of wedlock with her husband, if her husband works in the same house, that's, that's not on us to control. If it's, if it, if you're using that as a reason to not want this female to go out of the house and enjoy her day off, then your reason isn't justified.
Speaker 3 00:32:24 If you're going to tell me, for example, I have limited days all through the domestic workers at my house due to covid, due to the pandemic, due to being worried that, you know, she might catch the virus, yes. But did you include her in your decision? Did you include her as an adult in your decision? Our society, I feel a lot of people when it comes to, to domestic workers, there's this idea that giving them their right comes at the expense of taking from your own, right? There is this power struggle that people want to hang onto so much. And this power struggle is what allows them to control this individual who, at the end of the day, if, if you recognize their job as a domestic worker, this is a job that has working hours after working hours. This person is not your property.
Speaker 3 00:33:12 We are not here to control them. We don't control their whereabouts. We don't control how they use their phone. We don't control how, where they go, who they make friends with, because this is a job. And if I'm going to look at it like any other job, no one controls your, your what you would do in your spare time. So why do we allow, allow for that to happen? And it's a bit difficult in our society, like I said, because women and young girls here are in some families and in some households they are controlled. And the, it it, like I said, it tends to be passed down to that, that behavior and that attitude has been practiced on the domestic worker who was a stranger. This is not your child to raise. This is not your daughter to raise. This is an employee that you can advise.
Speaker 3 00:33:58 I would advise my friend, I would advise my colleague, I would advise my boss even, but I can't enforce something on them. I can't force them to abide by something. And if I feel like that we are not on the same page in terms of expectations that I want, as from the employee employer relationship, it doesn't mean that I hold them hostage until their contract is over. But instead let them go. And then I'm faced with the other arguments, but I paid X amount, but I paid this much, but I waited this much. So what if you paid, you didn't pay this amount to purchase this person. They're not an object. You paid this amount for a service and the service is hiring a domestic worker. Um, and do domestic work not to, not for you to control them, not for you to hold them hostage, not for you to, to dictate their every move.
Speaker 3 00:34:48 Because let's not forget one thing. This isn't a child that moved from one country to another for a job. This is an adult. Number two, that's not your family member. That's not your sister, that's not your your brother. If it's a male domestic worker, cuz there are male domestic workers as well. This is an individual, and I understand it might be hard because they are working within the, the intimate walls of a house and in which sometimes boundaries might be a bit vague and and unclear. But there is nothing wrong with identifying where you went wrong as an employer and making it better. There is no shame in it. There is a lot of shame when we sit in social gatherings and we take pride in the fact that we don't give domestic court days off because we don't want them to dress a certain way because we don't want them to establish intimate relationships because we don't want them to go to certain places.
Speaker 3 00:35:49 And the fact that this narrative is applauded by a loss is worrying. Instead, I would encourage people to be that person in that setting to say one second, but why not? How would you feel if it was you, if this was happening to you? Because if I'm being very rude, anything that we are doing to people and one day be happening to us, anything that we're putting others through and one day be happening to us, we need to stop assuming that, that this is going to be it for us for life. We don't know what might happen later on. That's totally, um,
Speaker 1 00:36:24 But those are very hard conversations to have, you know, it's a hard conversation to have with your own mom or grandmother or aunt. Uh, so there is the, the cultural element of it, of course there is the class element that you, you alluded to. There's that distinction or distinct, uh, feature in our, um, uh, societies in the Gulf where a woman are under someone's guardianship, a male's gone guardianship and thus this has been passed on to even people who work in their household. And there is the system that is corrupt the canal, a system, the sponsorship system is, you know, there are many questions work on that. And there is the whole idea of having someone within your house and what kind of boundaries you should have. What would you say, um, uh, is the terminology changes, uh, or the alterations of terminology, uh, and how this plays a role in modifying the preconceived notions and attitudes to towards domestic workers? You know, unfortunately any language has embedded, uh, set off, uh, terminologies and words that are associated with a certain population of people, a certain class of people who work for them or who perform certain, uh, certain work. This is women of
Speaker 3 00:37:50 The Middle Eastern Hot.
Speaker 1 00:37:52 In other words, what can we change in our language to change how we treat them? So
Speaker 3 00:38:00 I think language is very important, like you said, because with language and with words, there are definitions. And with definitions there are explanations. And until we refer to domestic workers, as domestic workers, you're never going to acknowledge their rules because under domestic workers there is a certain set of rules. So what is a domestic worker? A domestic worker is different than a gardener, different than a nanny, different than a housekeeper, different than a cook. Um, but we have this understanding that domestic worker is a do it all. Uh, the popular term I think within our society is kadam and ty, which means mine or mild search, which means yours. Again, objectifying individuals, hadam and myy and mal are not the right terms. You know, people might argue that hadam is not insulting. Yes, the term itself, hadam took them to, to help someone. It's a very positive, very nice word.
Speaker 3 00:39:11 But I have never used, I've never heard that being used in our society to praise someone. No one said, Great job, you know, looking like a hadam today or great job. But instead it's used in a way to say, um, if I ask someone, may you pass me this in a mocking tone, they might say, What am I, a hadam? And as if it's beneath you, as if it's below you. And that's where it's gone. And same thing with mildy, or even people might take it to the extent of using terms, uh, related to, to their, their country. They, they, they, they, they label them as what their country is. Andich Philippine Philippine. Um, and there no one takes a moment, very few take a moment, take a step back and say, Okay, but that sounds odd. What's the right term? Legally, the right term is domestic worker.
Speaker 3 00:40:09 What does a domestic worker do? Certain rules, certain tasks. When you refer to them by their name or by their job title, you would then acknowledge that they have those person, uh, roles. Then you don't ask of them to do everything. This isn't any, sorry, but this isn't the package deal. Uh, you know, hire one person and that one person is going to wash your card, do your garden, and cook your food, take care of the baby, clean the bedrooms, clean the bathrooms, clean the pool, uh, wash the windows outside, hang outside the building and wash the windows. Um, uh, be, be a nurse. Take on the role of a nurse if there is an elderly in the house and all of this for one person, that was the hardest job in the world. If, if we're, if we're going to put that all under one umbrella and in, in, I see the means.
Speaker 3 00:41:02 But if you, if you refer to, let's say, if you say I'm hiring a nanny, then you know that you are hiring this individual to look after young kids, using the right names and the right labels and the right job titles. Well then allow you to, to know what, what their tasks are. Cause this is the human being that we're talking about. You cannot expect someone to do it all just because you paid X amount at the very beginning of the recruitment process. And just while we're on that, because they might or might not have come from difficult life or difficult economic conditions, it does not justify you putting them through work. It does not justify you putting them through, you know, having to be okay with living in a or sleeping in a room that is one meter by one meter. You know, no one should be okay with that. And we hear it a lot in our, in our society that they had it worse back home. How do you know how that they had it worse back home? You know, there are domestic workers who came here and they have, they have nursing degrees, they have business degrees, They have, they came with under, under the idea that, or under the, the idea that they're going to be working in a different job. However, they, they, they were victims of this migration framework that we have. And it's, they're not, they're not to blame blame,
Speaker 1 00:42:32 Exactly. And even if they come from hardship, why put them through it again? You know, some people just left their homes, left their families for a better life.
Speaker 3 00:42:44 Also, what's very important is that we need to remember that these are not individuals on their own. This was someone's sister. This could be someone's mother, someone's cousin, someone's daughter, someone's brother, someone's, yeah. This is not someone who's just alone in this world. True. And imagine having to put on a completely different faith because you don't want to show your family back home who you have left, that you are struggling even worse here and not struggling because there isn't something that they can do about it. But struggling because there is someone who chose to make you struggle because go, they saw you as being beneath them. So what I was saying at the, at the beginning of, of our talk, you need to realize that if you see someone that might not have access to as much as you did here, or fight for them to have that type of access. If you see yourself being able to enjoy your weekend, but someone in your workspace is not able to because they are, for example, the security guard or they are the cleaner or they had ask your workplace to give them that, right? Because you enjoy it, you know how good it feels. So why not want the same for someone else?
Speaker 1 00:44:03 And look, this is a moment that I haven't seen within my generation. I see it now. And a big part of its, it's because of you and your work too. So as in San yet trains the support of interested volunteers every few months and fosters and facilitate debates and discussions regarding the laws governing migrant workers rights, um, here and Kuwait as well as, and Qatar. Right. In your opinion, what would you say your achievements thus far as, how did you manage to change the society or change policies or even raise awareness?
Speaker 3 00:44:38 Starting with my own household, I saw that there was an absolute change in an attitude and way of viewing things. And I'm speaking of a household who was never abusive towards workers within our house, nor were we ever abusive towards workers outside of our house. But no one is perfect. And we still had gaps in, in the way that we treated other people or what we provided or, uh, made available in terms of right. And I was able to see this interests in my siblings and my parents that when they come back home, they're now asking these questions. They're sharing these conversations that they've had with workers at the co-op or at the gas station or at a restaurant or at a coffee shop. They're having these conversations now about salaries, about working hours, about days off, about passport consultation. And that's important for me.
Speaker 3 00:45:32 That's an achievement on its own. Why? Because I know when the four other people in my household are asking these questions, then they might as well encourage four other people and others and others. And it's like the domino effect of just encouraging each other to, to ask questions, talk about them. Uh, I can see it as well, I can see the change amongst our fellows. We were able to train, uh, I was able to work with over 120 fellows, and most of them were in Kuwait and GABA as of recent. We had expanded to all of the GCC because everything is online now with the pandemic. But a lot of the fellows that we worked with, uh, through in signing out in migrant rights org were in Kuwait and <inaudible>. And a lot of them rejoin the cycle because they feel like there's more that they can learn.
Speaker 3 00:46:23 They rejoin because there's another campaign that they want to experiment with. And if they don't rejoin the cycle, a lot of them have went on and have done their own product project and have done their own campaigns and have done their own organization. And I see my role as just planting a seed of interest because it's two to three months that I have with fellows. And, and these are people that are my age, and if not, they're older than me. A lot of, some of, some of our fellows are older than me, so I'm learning as well as we go. And I see my role as just being, planting the seed of interest, but also encouraging you to go out there and to explore it. Have that conversation with your parents the way I did. My parents were not, um, supportive of me joining, uh, migrants rights or as the organization or working in advocacy because again, they saw it as maybe threatening the chances of me joining the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
Speaker 3 00:47:16 You know, I can't be a diplomat and represent the country. And at the same time, I am criticizing certain human rights abuses that I see being exercised within and going through rebellious things. I went ahead and I, and I said, I'm on board with migrants rights. And it was the same people who told me, Don't do it because they might get you in trouble. They're the same ones that are proud of me the day for doing it. And they are proud of me because they realize that they also changed on the inside. I have friends, I have coworkers who I, as they're talking, they, they, they pause and then they, they fix a certain term that they said sometimes people are talking and cause it's, it's at the tip of our tongue, you know, they're talking hadam. It's like, Oh, am man, you know, domestic worker where they're talking.
Speaker 3 00:48:04 It's like, and I remember the other day, my friend is, is in the process of hiring a domestic worker, and she said, So I am ordering. And she was kind of like asking me, Is that the right term to use? I said, You know, you're, you're recruiting a domestic worker. We're not ordering anyone. We order food, We order. No, we're not. We don't order people. Um, and I think it's, it's amazing. And because our society relies a lot on word of mouth and conversations, it's very rare that we will, you know, um, sit down and just start researching about migrant workers or researching about domestic workers or researching about, about, uh, human rights or advocacy. A lot of, a lot of our personalities and a lot of our attitudes are derived from what we see in, in family gatherings in Duane and Me list. And being able to introduce that conversation in that space is very important to me.
Speaker 3 00:49:02 And I think that's what standing at aims to do. And I, four and a half years later, I'm very, very happy. And I'm, I can proudly say that we were able to do it off and there was a lot of change in dialogue because I wish we could change policies in two to three months. But policies remain on paper. Dialogue and attitudes are tangible and they're, they're visible and you can see them and, and you can do them from just your house. You can do them from your workspace and then you can expand out into society and on the space.
Speaker 1 00:49:35 Nora, I'm also very proud of you. How do you see your future as Nora and our future as you shape it for us?
Speaker 4 00:49:44 This
Speaker 3 00:49:44 Is women of the Middle East podcast.
Speaker 4 00:49:48 So my near future plans are hopefully to go on and complete my master's degree in international human rights law. So, um, law has always been something that I was very passionate about. I love it. Uh, it was one of my field concentrations, uh, when I was doing my bachelor's degree. And hopefully with and LLM and International human Rights law, I'll be able to then affect policies back home, uh, whether it be here in Kuwait or even in the region. I think a lot of our policies and a lot of our laws are either outdated or they do not, um, uh, solve today's problems. Uh, they do not target today's problems. One of the main laws that comes to mind, for example, is, uh, banning workers from, uh, having their own unions. Um, and with that, that means that we'll always have to speak on behalf of workers, when in fact they should be speaking on behalf of themselves. They should be representing themselves, and they, they exist in very large numbers in our societies. And the fact that they can't have their own union to address problems that they face and to be there at the tables discussing these issues and discussing solutions doesn't sit well with me. So hopefully in the future I can, I, I can contribute to more legal changes, more policy changes that provide a better, safer and more humane life for, for migrant workers and residents in the region.
Speaker 3 00:51:27 What I see for the second question was
Speaker 1 00:51:31 Our
Speaker 4 00:51:31 Future, our generation,
Speaker 1 00:51:32 Yeah, the, the future that your generation would be shaping for us.
Speaker 3 00:51:37 Give us the chance
Speaker 3 00:51:40 And just sit back and let us show you what we can do, I promise you. And these are things that we hear in our gatherings. You know, when we all sit down together and we can come up with solutions to economic problems, we come up with solutions for, for political problems, for for on the ground problems, for, you know, unemployment problems. And it's because we are going through a lot of that. We are, uh, having to suffer the results of a lot of these things, of the, the results of increasing or high unemployment, the result of not finding jobs for, for what we are passionate about. And it's because what we are passionate about is not viewed as relevant, maybe, or, uh, zoo extreme. But what's wrong with extreme, Extreme leads to so much creativity and so many new opportunities for others. Um, I just hope that those that are in are leading positions right now, policy makers, decision makers to sit back and just give us the platform and just give us the, the space.
Speaker 3 00:52:49 Let us make mistakes, but let us learn from them as well. Because eventually we will be the future. We will be the ones that are sitting in those seats that are sitting at those tables. So why not start now? Because we're energetic now because it's there. The fire is there. Don't let our fire die out. And that's the unfortunate thing that I'm seeing with a lot of people my age. A lot of those who are unable to, to, uh, find a job that is suitable to their degree have just decided to settle for another job and they got comfortable. And I think com being comfortable is your biggest enemy. And it's an emotion that I do not want to experience because it's one that will hold you back, but it is one that is a result of a lot of outdated policies and a lot of doors being closed in our face. Open these doors for us and just give us the chance.
Speaker 1 00:53:38 I hope so. I hope so. Uh, Nora and don't give, give up on us yet. Um, at least origin, at least my generation. I see how, um, for one, love working with, uh, your generation. I know that, um, you are the ones who would realize our dreams. Uh, there are things that I'm doing right now that I know as much as I am pushing. Uh, I won't be able to realize it. You will realize it for my kids later. So we're depending on you. Nora, thank you so much. It was a pleasure having you on Movement of the Middle East Podcast.
Speaker 3 00:54:14 Thank you so much for having me, and thank you for allowing me the space to speak openly about the work that I'm not just an individual and the, the work that me, the fellows, and so many in my generation are doing today and will continue to do with the hope of it achieving tangible change.
Speaker 1 00:54:33 This is Woman of the Middle East podcast. Hope you enjoyed this episode. For discussion and feedback on today's episodes, contact me via Instagram. For any ideas about collaborations, please contact
[email protected]. This is Women of the Middle East podcast.
