Season 3 Episode 3: A Conversation with Young Feminist Banan AbuZainEddin [Dubbed]

Speaker 1 00:00:03 Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast, Woman Speaker 2 00:00:07 Of the Methodist. Speaker 1 00:00:09 This podcast relates to realities of Arab women and the rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present the multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East. My name is a Maki. I'm a feminist, scholar and educator. This is season three, conversations with young feminists. Speaker 2 00:00:33 This is Women of the Middle East podcast. Speaker 1 00:00:36 I'm so glad to have you in Women of the Middle East podcast. This is the first time, uh, uh, I have an episode in Arabic. I respect your choice to record it in Arabic. You insisted to have it in Arabic. Um, and and I respect that of course, and I respect your position. I want you to explain to us though, why this insistence on speaking in Arabic in this episode, knowing that it is episode number 15 or 16, I think out of, uh, uh, series three. Speaker 3 00:01:06 Actually, I prefer to speak in Arabic out of respect to our Arab societies and its ethnic and cultural diversity. In my opinion, uh, Arabic can be one of the tools that we can use to confront the accusations against us, that we are feminists embracing thoughts, um, or we can say like they claim we are heavily influenced by the West and their culture, uh, speaking in Arabic is very important as it allows me broader access to women from different backgrounds, uh, compared when we as feminists use English, it gives us limited access to specific parts of our society. As a feminist, my work is deeply connected to women from all classes and groups, and this can be achieved through the usage of Arabic language. I'm not an expert in Arabic, so using it is very challenging since the English terms are easier to find the news. However, I enjoy using Arabic as it makes me search for the translation of English to make the topic familiar to my audience. Um, translating these terms also create a gloss that represents us and reflect our reality as feminists. Speaker 2 00:02:10 This is Women of the Middle East Podcast. Speaker 1 00:02:12 Well, I respect this opinion, of course, Benon, uh, this is the third episode with young feminists, and one of the things I learned is that we have been trying to convince the West that we have feminists and that we have a feminist movement in the Arab world as to as well. However, at the same time, we lack contact with each other at the Arab region level, and we also do not, uh, know what is actually changing in the rest, you know, of the world, uh, and how we, um, fit and, and align with other movements. We, in fact, do not build on our feminist movements and its ongoing experiences. Of course, we can see that in some countries, uh, the fam feminist movements have, uh, recently begun, such as in the Gulf region, but in the Levant region, including Jordan. Um, such feminist movements are more developed, uh, and have a history there. Of course, I've realized now that you choose, uh, to speak in Arabic in order to push others to hear our voices in our own language. My listeners are from the West, uh, or those who have been educated bilinguals and multilinguals. Uh, let's start with you. Who is Banan? How do you, um, how have you started your career? I meet young feminists all the time, but I found out that their experiences are relatively, um, long, uh, considering their their young ages. How did this experience begun and develop? Speaker 3 00:03:46 I consider myself a feminist, and I'm proud of it. I have lived in different countries for a long time, including Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Jordan. This diversity of living places gave me a collective identity due to cohabitants in se Saudi Arabia, for example, I interacted with women and girls during the education stage of my life, and they were all from all Arab countries almost. And this gave me a holistic view of our reality as women, which deeply impacted my personality. Uh, Karina wise. It started almost 10 years ago in the field of community development by international and local organizations. A year and a half ago, uh, we established a Kato hat, which is intersections in English, which clearly reflected my identity. It was built on experiences and stories of women around me and in the region. Speaker 1 00:04:39 Benon, can you tell me, uh, and tell us how your upbringing, um, uh, was and, and, uh, within your small community, uh, and bigger community in Jordan. Um, how did feminists, um, history and, and Jordan, uh, or maybe in your family, um, contributed to, uh, making you who you are? Uh, why, uh, did you take this path in specific? Speaker 3 00:05:10 I am a 33 year old Jordanian woman, and I love this fact, and I'm proud of it. I studied computer engineering in Aleppo, and I'm currently studying law in Jordan to gain a second bachelor's degree. I'm passionate about learning and gaining knowledge as a feminist, Uh, supporting women around me adds to my self-confidence. I always challenge fear to prove myself in making our voice heard and our cause known. I wasn't raised in a family with feminist history, but there were feminist oriented practices and experiences around me. For instance, I learned from my mother who influenced my personality a lot and made me strong not to remain silent when it comes to fighting for my rights and not to give in to anything that is imposed on me. Um, the second child in my family, and we lived in Saudi Arabia, which was a challenge for us. Um, living as an expatriate with the feeling of returning to your home country one day causes instability, and it's not easy at all. And I'm sure like expatriates know this challenge very well and how it creates multiple identities within us. This kind of upbringing gave me the motivation to continue thriving and to take responsibility seriously. So these are the motives that seem to be feminists around me, but in fact, they were personal in behavior. I believe that feminism is in our daily practices, creating the challenge in us to raise our voices. Speaker 1 00:06:39 Right. You've reminded me of Monetta Hai who, um, uh, explored and discovered feminism while she was in Saudi Arabia. Of course, I respect Monetta Hai, uh, a lot, even if I disagree with, uh, uh, some of her ideas. Now, tell me about, uh, TA Kaha. I'm very interested in what you do. Tell us about the work you do, the scope, uh, home, uh, you are talking to, and, uh, your main objectives. Speaker 3 00:07:06 In 2013, a colleague and I founded a feminist reading club targeting young women in Jordan and during its monthly activities, we used to read a book by a feminist writer or discuss a feminist topic. Discussions used to take place within the group on the degree of connection between us and such topics. From a feminist perspective, this initiative lasted for a period of time until the Covid 19 pandemic era started. We realized there was a notable demand on registration in Ta Kato Act, and we wanted it to be within a specific scope to analyze and measure the impact of this initiative. We also noticed a need for the love of learning, love of knowledge, an actual work in real life. During this series of readings, the murder of a Lamb occurred in 2020. She's a Jordanian girl who was killed by her father, who did not show any remorse for such crime. Speaker 3 00:08:02 Instead, he sat to drink tea After committing this terrible crime, as if nothing happened, people did not intervene to change something, and the society and his reaction provoked us. We therefore protested after gaining official demonstration approvals and had to encounter challenges within a difficult context. In Jordan, however, we managed to raise our voice in the community and left an impact on the social scene. We also obtained a promise, uh, which is one of our gains to review a family protection procedure act on women and girls. Also, we arranged with a group, uh, the creation of an online campaign, and the train came with a hashtag entitled Stop the Killing of Women. Uh, this hashtag with a case related to women remained, uh, trending for three days. And this is something unusual in our society where fathers are usually not criticized by groups like us. Uh, prior to this, a Jordanian woman named Fama had a terrible domestic violence incident in 2019 when her husband gagged her, both her eyes out. Speaker 3 00:09:09 Women strongly condemned the crime at that time, but the society's reaction was unfortunately, um, not what we have looked for. However, I can say that the year marked the beginning of change, people began to reconsider patriarchy and its limits, and what is our message as advocates? This raised the extent of hope that we will build on the concept of Dora therefore came to life. I established it with, uh, three women at the beginning. Then two other women joined us in addition to feminists from outside Jordan such as Lebanon, Palestine, and Egypt. We started our work a year ago and launched our webpage two days before the 16 days of activism. We also launched a study on the reality of women scene during the Covid 19 pandemic period in Jordan and the violence they were exposed to. Uh, it was a successful campaign and we opened the door for women to join. Speaker 3 00:10:10 Uh, the turnout was great. Now we have reached a very good stage in our work, and we are visible socially through sessions introducing feminism and the campaigns we are carrying out, as well as activating a feminist movement In reality, this movement in fact, is not new and extends back to a long time ago in Jordan. I do not know the ex the exact date of its beginning, but it can be said that it began since the establishment of the Jordanian state and went through a period of inactivity where the appearance of civil organizations made it far from the political movement. Uh, this is actually a challenge and made people think we are human rights activists more than seeing us as feminists. Therefore, the TWA ad came, uh, within a context related to the re uh, to the region, to renew the spirit of the feminist movement by young women, as you said. And this helped us return to the heart of the issue as we are feminists working to support our issues and interact with them. Speaker 2 00:11:17 This is Women of the Middle East podcast, Speaker 1 00:11:20 Right? I think, you know, the use of language and, and the terminologies in one's language is very important. I've noticed, for example, that some feminists have been shying away from, um, calling themselves feminists and instead have been brushing it off with, uh, a general terms like, uh, human rights activists. Um, this actually sets us back a bit, uh, in the Arab countries. Um, uh, why do we need to justify, um, being feminists now giving the fact that the Kaha has been working for a year now? What do you think has changed? You said it, you said the community has changed. How did you influence and touch upon language its importance and the community's reaction to patriarchy? Um, I'm surprised that we do not yet know what patriarchy is within our communities. At least we haven't, uh, defined it at the social level. Um, it's true that you have a long feminist history, and I hope the generations that preceded, um, you made this issue easier for you and your generation, but your attitude has become intersectional. Intersectionality is a different thing, and those who proceeded, uh, uh, us did not address it per se. Tell us what you've influenced other than society and the feminist movements. Have you influenced the policies, for instance? Speaker 3 00:12:42 Uh, no. We haven't been able to change the policies so far because we are still at our early stage of work, but we managed to shed lights on our issues. We emerged at the public level and conveyed the image of women and the role. We also introduced the feminist economy and highlighted the violence against women in the thir, uh, in the 16 days of activism, which changed the social scene. Indeed, uh, besides we are working as a feminist group within the context of the feminist movement, and balancing between them is not easy. Uh, working towards changing the laws requires effort and long term strategic planning. So what is important, I believe, is not only changing the low but activating its application. At that point, we will be able to say that there has been an actual change, whether through the adapted system, um, or the way people understand this change, especially the digestive authorities and how they're reflected in reality. Speaker 3 00:13:42 This is the real change we seek because many laws and practices have remained inactive on paper. So to get to this stage, I think we need time. As for societal change, as I said at the beginning of the interview, it's a movement of a slow nature as people's reactions show that we therefore need to work hard on societal change. In my opinion, feminist work needs to focus more on laws and community. It is the applicable law, not the mere existence of it on paper. Working with the community indeed is a huge challenge too, as it is the case, uh, with changing laws and regulations related to the women and girls Speaker 1 00:14:24 Hefta and the five women in charge of it. Uh, the volunteers you have your followers ever encountered problems that involve, uh, sexual discrimination, for example. Speaker 3 00:14:36 I will answer this question, but I would like to add something about societal change. Uh, if I may, we see it indeed by the number of volunteers at, uh, at the Kato in Jordan or even abroad, where one of our previous programs was regional women's school, which also face challenges. When we see the reactions of women during our women's session or in the women's school, we feel with joy, the change because they come from outside Amman city. This is what we strive for. I mean, to reach all the regions in Jordan, one of them informed us that she was afraid to talk, but she chose to write via chat. She explained that she's divorced and she expressed her happiness with our programs, but she refused to talk because she lives with her family and it's forbidden for her to do so. We also see that some of them chose to mention the issue of women in their re uh, in their graduation speeches, uh, which like made us feel great. Speaker 3 00:15:36 Some of them also participated with us in the feminist school enjoying a broader holistic view. And this, in my opinion, is the change we are achieving. Uh, this is the success we seek, even if it is at the level of individuals. I'm sure this work is like the concept of a domino. It will move from one person to another in a way that helps to transfer this knowledge so that we can, um, have a change and raise our voices towards women issues, um, in regular social demand, just like any other normal matter within our society. As for the challenges, uh, there are many, especially within the Jordanian context. There is a limited and shrinking space. Unfortunately, this is what we face in various forms. Uh, for example, through community questionings, verifying the, uh, the accountability of our work, questioning by certain official bodies, uh, police interference or other forms. This is in addition to the community's reaction and how people comment on our social media posts. It's something expected. Indeed. People do not change quickly and they usually fear change or new ideas, but on the long run, our community will change. Yes, it requires a lot of time and, uh, progressive struggle, uh, accompanied by patients and continued work to overcome these challenges. Speaker 1 00:16:59 This is Women of the Middle Eastern podcast. It needs people like you. Indeed. Uh, we need feminists like Euan. Okay. Tell us now, uh, about the women's, uh, reading club and the regional school. What is the role of men and them? Have you ever involved, um, men in those initiatives? Did you invite them or, um, did anyone care to take part of it? Speaker 3 00:17:22 Uh, not a lack of interest by them, but we at ta Kato work within the context of Jordan, and we look forward to the regional context to focus on raising awareness regarding the challenges. But we mostly work with women and girls since they are the main stakeholders of the case, and they are, um, they are able to talk about it better. We know for sure that feminism should involve women and men at the same time, but in our opinion, and as per the image of women in the vision of our society, we are still in the stage where we as women need to learn more, raise our voice, and have more knowledge and space to talk about our issues. Before the male component of the society participates with us. There are many institutions working with women and men in Jordan, as well as many female university teachers working with women and men, and we are open to corporations with everyone. But within TA Kato Act, we see that there is a need to focus on women and girls more. Speaker 1 00:18:22 I actually agree with you usually when I, uh, provide training here, I focus our efforts, uh, at the early stages on allocating those efforts and assigning them to women in particular, uh, as they need it. You know, we, we have to admit it, women need it more than, uh, others because they're the ones who are negatively affected usually, and, and the ones who are disadvantaged. Speaker 3 00:18:45 We have the right to create our own spaces and to discuss our issues and be present within spaces in which we are comfortable and able to express our, uh, point of view that will allow us to learn and develop our capabilities and be open to discussions with the various groups of society. Speaker 1 00:19:03 Being from the older generation of feminists, uh, that came before you and your work, what have we done for you and what we've done wrong that resulted in, in challenges arising, uh, um, for you two? For example, I act as an academic and I focused my career and my writings in English mostly as I studied abroad and my, you know, published work is mostly in English. Did this thing cause a disadvantage to you? Tell us, Benon, did it negatively affect you as a young feminist? What do you think? Speaker 3 00:19:40 Our existence as a caring generation of feminist is based on your presence and your struggles. In fact, it's an accumulative work, in my opinion, in this kind of work. For example, social change, movement and feminist activity. There is no right or wrong, uh, consequences. This is because experience makes us see whether we succeed or not. Our efforts can succeed within our context, but might not succeed in another context. Therefore, your work presence and your voice are inseparable from us. Indeed, it is a constructive and motivating factor for us to continue the hard work. The thing that we need most is how we help each other. There are no mistakes or absolute success. They are just lapses that each of us can fall into. What is important is the support and solidarity between us and the strong relationship between generations, and this actually ensures that we know each other more. Speaker 3 00:20:39 In addition to our openness to each other. This is quite indispensable. Our generation and your generation know that attitudes and thoughts have developed and changed, but they came within different time contexts. We are similar in this perspective, but we need to develop them further so that our voice can reach all our support for each other, really matters. Even if we defer in your opinions or point of views, sometimes it is a healthy type of difference at the end of the day, such support is the main foundation that we need to firmly stand on in order to accomplish the mission. Speaker 1 00:21:17 Thank you, Vean. Beautifully said. Sisterhood is based on acceptance of differences, right? No matter how our work may seem different, our voices need to be merged and amplified in one collective voice. What should we offer? Ta kata and young feminists like you? What can we do for you? How can our role be more active and within any fields, religion, journalistic, academic, or any, any other field, What do you expect from us? Speaker 3 00:21:45 Cooperation and support are very important aspects. In addition to planning on a regional level with each other, I think this will help us very much in terms of development because in my opinion, the difference in experiences and their unification at the same time is not available within our scope or within the golf context. Uh, the context of the Levant or Iraq, we all intersect at the same issues and face the same challenges. So sharing our experiences will help us to continue our planning to work on a regional level, gives us greater strength and influence, which is an important matter. On this basis, we chose to have our board of trustees on a regional pattern. It was important that we worked on a regional woman's school as well as the 16 days of activism, the initiative of feminists, uh, against violence. We also conducted meetings with, uh, 16 women, and we had the honor to have you as one of them. Speaker 3 00:22:48 Each one of them spoke about her reality within her country. So this kind of solidarity and action at the regional level, in my opinion, will help us chatter the glass dividers of our political system that isolated us as Arab countries and give us identities that are not real and do not represent us because our contexts are very similar and intersect in many areas, which socially, for example, religiously, educationally, and even ethically. We intersect and are very similar to each other despite our different accents of the same Arabic language. We are very similar. Women's image in the society is the same. Incidents and cases of similar nature are the best evidence to prove my opinion. We have similar cases in Tunisia Gulf countries and the entire region, and our challenges are the same Texas citizenship loads, for example. We, we all cannot transfer citizenship to our children just because we are women. This was a French law during colonialism, which we still apply. Unfortunately, it is discriminatory against women and has no justification at all. Countries have developed and changed their laws all over the world while we keep such laws valid. This is an example of how the portrait of women has deteriorated since the colonialism era and how the violence against women has continued till now. Speaker 1 00:24:17 This is Women of the Middle East podcast, so none, it's been a year since the Qatar was established, right? Um, I wanna talk about the impact, um, whether, uh, there was an impact of, of the pandemic, the global pandemic Covid 19 on, on, uh, the decision to establish Taka. So for example, we talk about shadow pandemic. Uh, we saw your 16 days of activism campaign, how the pandemic exposed the fragility of institutions in Arab, in our Arab countries, uh, that were of course clearly unable to protect women. Did this actually drive you to establish Ta Kato? Speaker 3 00:24:57 Uh, actually it's not the main reason. Uh, however, at the beginning of our campaign, we focused on that fact and reflected it. We highlighted the impact of the pandemic on the violence against women in the world, as I said. And there were challenges in all contexts, such as work, education, responsibility and paid work and daily wage work for women at all levels. But at the same time, there was an interesting fact in Ta Kato add. During that time, we were able to benefit from this experience because people used the internet and eets and social media. More than any time before this made it easier for us to connect to women in different regions. As we were in the process of being established, we managed to reach women at the regional level in different geographical zones. We also reached those living outside the city of Amman in Jordan. Without this experience, therefore it would have been difficult for us to reach out to, um, to secure a dire communication with these women. Feminist training by women volunteers in Tato ad consisted of 10 sessions and included women from all cities in Jordan, in addition to a group from outside Jordan. The feminists who presented these sessions were from different countries. We had female trainers, uh, from Lebanon, Egypt, and Palestine. If it was not during the Covid 19 pandemic, our trainees would not have been able to benefit from such knowledge and, uh, and efforts. Speaker 1 00:26:27 How can we invest in, um, social media, uh, virtual world to communicate further in order to reach the groups that needs us the most as it happened in the field of education? For example, What are your plans? What can we do? Uh, we can share and incorporate in many ways, of course, and we do not need to meet in person anymore. Uh, we can reach, uh, more women. Although the percentage of Arab women who use the internet is unfortunately among the lowest in the world. How can we invest in, um, the online offerings as an advantage to serve our goals? Speaker 3 00:27:06 Uh, to be honest, the opportunity of online communication represents a space that makes us share our issues, uh, faster. It's very important that we use these spaces. It's very important that we shed lights on our issues and needs because we can reach the media faster and spread our issues at the regional and international level faster too. This space allows us to take advantage of the opportunity to create pressure on society and governments to achieve the change we seek. Also, it'll be easier for us to access traditional or modern digital media, and at the same time, it's important for us to maintain efforts to serve, um, others outside the scope of the internet. As you said, Dr. Amel, not all women are able to use this means of communication. What is important then is to focus our work to raise our voice through knowledge. Besides building our feminist knowledge must be on the fact that there are women who cannot use the digital space or do not prefer it because the in-person communication provides a different kind of support. At the same time, we must maintain this pace while taking into account protecting ourselves on social media. This is important not to let these spaces be used against us since they have become double pressures and violence against us as women and feminists because people now misuse the freedom of, of speaking without restrictions, Speaker 1 00:28:35 Right? Uh, violence and reality, um, has been translated, uh, and moved to the virtual world. Nothing has changed indeed. Um, we conduct studies on such issues and see it very clearly through the language used in online, uh, verbal abuses. Uh, this is a reflection of the physical violence and reality, and it's frightening indeed. Speaker 3 00:28:59 Absolutely. And it's very important that we become aware of this and support each other online and offline to ensure overcoming these challenges. Speaker 1 00:29:08 I'm glad to tell you that the challenge was very interesting. It was a challenge to learn indeed. And this episode, I learned a lot from you and I'm very proud of you. I'm sure you will have a great future, and the future you're building will be lived by our children and and us as mothers too. We fully support you. Thank Speaker 3 00:29:30 You. And this support really helps us very much. We are very fortunate with the support of feminists offered, uh, to us at Tato. I'm grateful to them and I'm glad to know you as a person and our board of trustees as well. You are a supportive feminist whom always offered fruitful communication. Uh, you have a big name with a long history, and you are very generous in offering your knowledge to us. Um, it is my pride to reliving in this era and receiving the support and solidarity. I hope this will go on so that we pass it on to the next generation of feminists, uh, and to build future generations that embrace this kind of brave spirit. Speaker 1 00:30:12 I hope so. I hope so. Thank you so much, Benun. Uh, Speaker 3 00:30:15 Thank you Dr. Amal. Wow, the time flight. Quickly. I enjoyed your questions. Thank you very much. Speaker 1 00:30:21 This is Woman of the Middle East Podcast. Hope you enjoyed this episode. For discussion and feedback on today's episodes, contact me via Instagram. For any ideas about collaborations, please contact us at wm [email protected]. This is Women of the Middle East podcast.