Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:04 Hello and welcome to Woman of the Middle East podcast. This podcast relates the realities of Arab woman and the rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present the multiplicity of women's voices, and it wishes to break cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East, as well as educate and empower the younger generation of Middle Eastern women who were stripped of their historical reference and weren't necessarily raised to believe in their agency and power to create their own destiny. Um, I'm a malki. I'm a feminist scholar and educator. I'm also the author of Arab Woman and Arab News, All stereotypes and New Media. I created this podcast to be an extension and an update of the book and its main topics.
Speaker 1 00:00:52 Hello and welcome all of you to episode 13 from Woman Over the Middle East Podcast. As I've been publishing an episode every two weeks so far to bring to you four talks that I've, uh, selected to cover in collaboration with executive women from their Empower Now Online conference that was held back in March, 2021. This episode covers the last intervention from the social impact session. Uh, this one is by DMA Sims, whose stock is entitled The Glass Ceiling Ambition Versus Gender. Dagmar Sims is a result-oriented general manager and specialist in luxury in industry with a diverse experience both within the luxury retail and hospitality field. Ms. Dagmar brings in her experience and through her insights, having lived in Saudi Arabia as well as other, um, countries in the mean region, uh, have worked in industries that are male dominated. She speaks about transformative leadership and the barriers women face, but also the opportunities that need to be exploited and the stances that need to be taken by women to contextualize, um, DER's talk and the topic, which is really big.
Speaker 1 00:02:09 Uh, I reached out to Hanan Bin Haluk, who's who was the facilitator, uh, on the social impact session. Han's work and writings makes her an expert on female leadership and talent development, and she uses those terms as opposed to the cliche phrase, empowerment that is so common, yet it has become an elastic term. Um, and I'm one of those people just like Haan, who's very, um, skeptical and, uh, very uncomfortable using, um, a female or woman empowerment anymore. I share with you first he's take on the topic in which she calls for rethinking the existing models of leadership and demeanor in specific, where in several countries, women surpass men in educational attainment yet are not utilized properly, uh, in the job market. After that, you will hear the last recording from Empower. Now, social impact theme by Dagmar.
Speaker 2 00:03:15 When I look at the topic of female leadership, feminine leadership, female talent advancement, because I just shy away from using women empowerment, uh, simply because I believe that today we can no longer talk about women empowerment as a cause or a social cause. Yes, women and many, many women, millions of women still lack their rights, still need a lot of, um, basic rights to be equal to the rights of men. But what I mean here is that probably it's high time, just like everything around that's a shifting to shift that narrative and to shift the perspective that we look at the topic from. Meaning that if we have to use the word empowerment, probably we need to look at it from a different angle. Because today it is the world that needs the female or the feminine attributes of leadership. To be empowered, we need to empower more societies, more work environment, and more decision making positions with the feminine leadership.
Speaker 2 00:04:23 And with that, I don't just mean putting more women at the top or in high, high positions, it's really about creating the space for them, creating the conducive policies, the environment and the space so that they can lead authentically with their feminine attributes. Because research is showing that the 21st century business challenges or challenges in general, whether they're so social, economical or political, are calling for a different model of leadership for different leadership traits. And those leadership traits such as, such as empathy, engagement, collaboration, um, participative decision making care. You just happen to be called feminine attributes or feminine leadership traits that can be taught to both genders. It is just by having more women in decision making, they were, they will use or utilize these traits in a innate way. And for that, we need to really start thinking about that need, uh, spreading these attributes.
Speaker 2 00:05:39 And with that, it means that we need to attract, develop, attract, and retain and advance more female talent. And when I look at the, um, um, the local, um, the local contexts in the region, region, the Arab region or the Middle East, and not Africa, region research is showing year on year that the majority of graduates are happening to be females. So as employers, whether in the government or the private sector, we are exposed to this fact, this reality that the talent pool will be with the majority of females. So what are we doing to attract them? What are we doing to make sure that we can take advantage of their knowledge, of their, of their capabilities? That's the question that I want to ask. So we need to work together, um, academia, private sector, public sector to make sure that we are enabling, preparing, advancing and creating those spaces for these women to thrive. But also that we are spreading this new notion of the necessity of having diversity because diversity enables creativity, enables innovation, enables the variety in leadership model that will be really, really, um, vital for any organization or any society or any country to advance.
Speaker 3 00:07:25 Good evening. Evening, Miss Dmar. Thank you for being with us today. Mrs. Dmar Times a private general manager, private state, and also a lecturer, educator and motivational speaker. Happy to welcome you with us today on Empower. Now as a panelist, our funded panelists for the segments of social impact. Thank you for being in power now, the executive Women, uh, digital event, and we'll be talking about a glass ceiling that invisible be that I think all of us that have been speaking since early this <inaudible> to hire more younger women to do the same. So I'd like to hear your, your input on that and your insights of about the glass ceiling and the gender specific stereotype thinking. Why is it so difficult Still? We are in 2021, the battle started at least since we started having an official international Women's Day. Uh, March 8th is more than hundred years now. Yet the numbers are still advancing at a very, very slow pace. And so why do you think it's so difficult for competent women? And we do have a lot of competent women, as I was sharing earlier, just in the Middle East, the, uh, graduates from university are at two thirds of the talent pool. So why do we still find it so difficult advance?
Speaker 4 00:08:57 Uh, so first of all, thank you so much for the introduction and uh, the guidance through a wonderful panel discussion. At least up to here, I will try my best. Uh, what a beautiful platform. And uh, honestly, I'm very blessed having had Kathy speaking about emotions, empathy and others because it couldn't be better fitting the hospitality sector that I belong to. Right? Um, the glass ceiling, you know, I was really wondering, should we still use the word? It is so cliche and yet I thought it covers so many different features that we are still subject to, you know, it is this invisible barrier preventing us from reaching top positions. It is somehow a met tougher use to characterize gender inequality. It is, um, the unacknowledged barrier to advancement. And, um, you know, when I had chosen back then, uh, hospitality as being my career path, um, I was always told it's a men dominated, uh, industry.
Speaker 4 00:10:05 And, uh, if you even today still speak to people, they would confirm the same. And yet, 70% of the workforce in the hospitality nowadays are ladies, which is such an encouraging number and, um, clearly inspiring for gender diversity and parity. Yet in the same companies, only 20% reach executive levels and thereafter below 8% are general managers and directors. So I'm obviously from a European background. I am in the Middle East for over eight years now, having started in Lebanon, um, which is my country by heart, uh, working over Oman and now on the call from Rya. And, um, I think, uh, hospitality being a very time intense, uh, domain. And also at the same time we women always have to have this balancing act between family and business. Um, I had to throw in at one stage, of course this agenda, specific stereotype thinking. I'm so aligned with you that nowadays how can it still be a subject?
Speaker 4 00:11:29 It is actually embarrassing. It is appalling. It is absolutely not comprehensives, especi noting how much the females have entered universities education in most countries at least, you know, are very advanced. And yet there is still this very stereotype thinking of men take charge and think manager think male whilst we women are taking care. And this taking care puts us very often into a corner of being weaker and more delicate to lead. Um, whilst I believe, and I'm a firm, uh, fighter, at least in my business to support the female workforce as much as I can. And you can imagine that especially also in the Middle East, it's a huge topic. But in Saudi Arabia, maybe a little more, having opened up only two years ago to, um, a more less fair, what a big word for the local community in terms of driving cars. And, uh, I'm also not subject anymore to wearing a buyers and other, you know, clothes that, uh, would be subject to offense.
Speaker 4 00:12:49 So I think, um, we are slowly gaining teran, but clearly not at all enough. And part of it's is stereotype thinking. Yeah. But another, um, another part that I like the lot, you know, um, was also why is it so difficult for competent women to advance? Or in other words, there is a beautiful book written by Thomas Camaro, Why do so many incompetent men become leaders? And this is a very provocative title written by a man that clearly emphasizes on the disparity and the, the inequality in the workforce. Um, noting that in the hospitality it is very, very, um, impressive to see how women slowly but raising their hand and moving ahead. But I think our part with the family, I have two children as well. My sons are now at an elder age, 16 and 20. Um, but I couldn't have done it without the support of a certain network surrounding me to give me the freedom to advance.
Speaker 4 00:14:06 And, um, I would believe that sadly women are still subject to this double function, if not triple function in being wife, mom, and businesswoman at the same time. And thus we have to work a little harder. But, um, I see more and more success stories also coming up despite the fact some of the, uh, my predecessors on the panel spoke about the Covid pandemic and, um, especially our field in the hospitality and the tourism sector has been hit so badly that, um, the closure of hotels and travel restrictions, you know, lead to traumatic situations in our business and especially, uh, women, uh, have been disproportionately been affected by job cuts and reduced working hours. So you are back in. Yes. So, um, uh, Covid had, especially in our domain as well, a very disproportional affected, uh, women in terms of job cuts, losing jobs and reduced working hours.
Speaker 4 00:15:20 Yeah. Um, however, I think that there is a huge opportunity now in the way ahead of us in terms of leadership. And, um, there is one management style that you would call transformational leadership where I believe women will definitely mark the footprints faster than anybody else because we are basically, uh, empathetic. You know, we have this, um, emotional part that we just talked with Casey that is, uh, in the past it was viewed as a weakness. It is a strength. And I'm very often asked as well, you know, um, should we women act like men when we raise the ranks? And I'm like, Not at all in the contrary.
Speaker 3 00:16:09 And again, does it only take that to have coat tasks to put women, um, uh, on the, at the table? There's a lot of efforts, uh, you know, on that front to put more women at the table. But then again, and that's something I talk a lot about, I wrote a lot about it is not just about pushing more women or imposing more women at the table, It's about understanding. So do we have to act like men to become a leader? Which brings us back to the very definition of the leadership attributes.
Speaker 4 00:16:40 Definitely, definitely not, definitely not. Uh, first of all, if you try to act as if you become something else, and, uh, that, that is a little bit like stand up comedian versus effective leaders, you know, or you become a copy of yourself, definitely not. I think in the contrary, we have so many different characteristics and features that if you combine it with our male community, you can only win because it is counterbalancing itself. And I'm absolutely, um, a believer that, um, that the female workforce enriches and it is proven by so many researchers, uh, and statistics and, uh, in the real workforce simply that we do just need to be ourselves. But I believe that we need to be more daring, you know, and that leads also to the stereotype thinking. Um, it is proven that women in order to be promoted, have to prove first of all that they can.
Speaker 4 00:17:49 So we are based on results for the next level whilst men are promoted based on the potential that employers see in them, based on their confidence, which leads to a wrong interpretation of competence. And this is where we ladies have to learn. And in your very early opening statement, you also mentioned, um, Cheryl Sandberg, She is the one questioning the first, the ambition in women because the moment you put out ads or you try to promote certain senior leadership positions, and you put attributes to it, like powerful, challenging responsibility, funnily enough, even competent women shy away from daring to step ahead whilst our male counterparts have this confidence I can and they will get it. So I think what is in our favor these days is truly this, uh, the more honest approach, the empathy that is needed more and more. Also don't forget generation wise, around the corner, they are all coming up and they have a total different demand on a workplace. Yes. You know, I'm a generation, um, where you really live to work that has changed. The younger generation works to live. And this, in my humble opinion, goes exactly aligned with this transformational leadership in the typology of employees or team members, we will guide and at the same time in how the world is transforming because the world after covid will never, ever be the same for a very, very long time. And this wording of the, you know, new normal, whatever it holds, will have a huge effect on our industry, of course,
Speaker 3 00:19:53 The way we used to deal with inter generations before and try to prove to the employer why they should employ us today. We as leaders have to prove to the employee why they should, why we are the right company for them. So a lot of roles are shifting, a lot of concepts are shifting, and which requires a more feminine approach. And we're not saying women, but rather a more feminine approach that could also be embraced by men. It just happens that it is innate in women. And so the, the world is the decision making is moving more towards soft power, if you will. Um, that's what every leader needs to realize and work towards moving to if they want to thrive in this new norm, in this ever changing world. Totally.
Speaker 4 00:20:45 I couldn't agree more, Hannah. I couldn't agree more. And, uh, who knows, maybe it's our time more than ever now with the attributes that we bring to the table. And, um, my experience has clearly shown that female leaders score far higher in transformational leadership aspect. And, uh, they show themselves far more engaged, more dedicated, especially to the workforce. And that is also what the youngsters need because, uh, in my industry it's a people's industry. But, you know, social media, especially for the younger degeneration is a very contradictory effect to communicating face to face because the hospitality is based on the team members and then the other human factor, the guests and the communication is key in there. So all these social media and, you know, mobile watchers, uh, will be quite challenged in the future, and you have to embrace them and to bring them back on track basically and educate them accordingly.
Speaker 4 00:21:52 I think, uh, you might even call it a nurturing management style, and that is, that is such a female touch despite management can have style, which I think most of our ladies, uh, you know, have as well. That, um, it might be really our time to prove with the new generation kicking in and with the globalization of the world and the changes coming up that lead well beyond also, you know, sustainability, environmental, um, in, in, in, in different approaches to, um, to workforce, it will, uh, I think be a very positive sign for us women to mark the teran. Definitely,
Speaker 3 00:22:38 As you said, because of that confidence versus competence, some women feel that in order to be taken seriously or to be perceived as a leader, they try to change their weight and try to embrace more masculine model. And to me, that does not serve the purpose, because if you push women and they lead with a masculine model, then we would've defeated the purpose of creating that, um, you know, new leadership model that happens to be more feminine in its style. So we have to keep that in mind, that we don't need to prove ourselves and we don't need to change to prove ourselves. It's just, uh, about leading authentically and with those innate, genuine, nurturing, empathic, um, you know, holding the space for others which will be more needed. Um, I think that you, you, you just hidden the nail on the hat as they said, and you validated so many points. And I do believe as well that the future is for the feminine model of leadership, whether it's true having more women or through spreading those attributes to even more men to embrace them.
Speaker 4 00:23:44 Yes. Uh, I was just saying, uh, I I, I think the summary from my end is that you do not need to change the image of women nor men, but it's the image of the leadership role. And that will change in our favor.
Speaker 3 00:24:00 I think we are in a good place and we are heading towards the right direction, and we will continue on challenging.
Speaker 1 00:24:11 I hope you have enjoyed this very interesting discussion between Dagmar and Haan. And with this fourth talk taken from Empower, now we end this series of talks that were brought to you by Executive Woman and Woman of the Middle East. I will go back to publishing an episode every month and will begin a new series of discussions with young feminists whose work and activism is shaping the new feminist movements in M region. I've also promised you to have an episode dedicated to your questions, but I'm still gathering your questions, so keep them coming. Write to me, send me, uh, your questions, uh, those directed to me or about certain topics that you would like me to talk more about. So till next episode, take care and stay safe.
