Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast. This podcast relates the realities of Arab women and their rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East. Season five is a collaboration between MUA and Women of the Middle East Podcast, as we will be discussing Mu Our's latest book, justice and Beauty in Muslim Health towards egalitarian ethics and laws published by One World Academic in December of 2022. My name is Amal Malki. I'm a feminist scholar and an educator. This is Women of the Middle East Podcast. Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast. This is season five, justice and Beauty and Muslim Marriage towards an Egalitarian Ethics and Laws is an edited book that is made of four sections with a contribution of 17 authors has, it has been gaining lots of attention and building its momentum across different genres and fields since its launch in November, 2022, which is merely, uh, two to three months ago. In this episode, we host one of the book's, editors, who has also authored a chapter in the book, Dr. Mulkey Al Charman. Dr. Mulkey, lovely to have you.
Speaker 1 00:01:15 Thank you for having me. It's pleasure to be with you.
Speaker 0 00:01:18 Our pleasure, Dr. Mulkey. The introductory, uh, chapter by, by the volumes co editors, you being one of them provides an overview of the idea within the connections with men in Charge, rethinking Authority and Muslim legal tradition, uh, published in 2015 and the concepts of Kowa and, uh, <unk>. Uh, it then outlines muks, um, holistic approach that combines Islamic teachings, international human rights standards, national laws and constitutional guarantees of equality and acknowledgement of lived realities. Can you talk about, um, the, this idea and how the idea of the book was conceived and what, in your opinion, is the contribution of this book to the fields of feminist theory and Islamic studies?
Speaker 1 00:02:07 Definitely, and thank you for your interest. Um, well, uh, <unk> as you know, is a movement, uh, um, you know, led by Muslim women, uh, from all over the world. And we are interested, uh, in, uh, working towards the goal of justice in the Muslim family, and specifically reforming Muslim family laws. We believe very much the importance of linking knowledge building with activism, uh, and building rigorous knowledge that makes the case for, uh, reform. Uh, and this book builds, as you mentioned, Dr. Mel, on our previous, uh, project. In the previous project, uh, the Klay Project, and which out of which came the bookman in charge. We were interested in diagnosing the problem, getting to the substantive, found the foundation of gender inequality in our, uh, Muslim legal tradition, focusing on these two juristic concepts of Kwale. Now, in this book, what we're trying to do is to reconstruct, we are trying to, uh, explore possibilities.
Speaker 1 00:03:10 Can we have different conceptions of marriage, ethical and legal frameworks for a marriage, Muslim marriage that is based on equality, uh, that is based on justice, that is based on the equal worth and the partnership of the two, um, spouses. Uh, and if can we make that case, again, based on a very solid knowledge from within our, uh, Islamic textual tradition. And because we adopt the holistic approach, um, uh, we are interested in, uh, in this book, we have been interested in trying to engage and do research with the Muslim, uh, legal tradition, textual tradition from all its different aspects. So the first first section is on the Koran. We have scholars working on <unk>, uh, as well as, uh, Islamic law as a practice in the past and modern family laws, uh, and sophism. So it's, uh, engaging with Islamic textual tradition holistically from all its different textual. Johns our, our overall holistic approach also brings together Islamic textual, uh, teachings, uh, um, human rights discourse, uh, the local and national laws and constitutions that affirm equality of all citizens. And the fourth prong of our holistic approach is the lived reality, which is what will be focused on in the second component of our research. So we're not done yet.
Speaker 0 00:04:41 Oh, lovely. So tell me, what is it, what would the second, uh, part of the research
Speaker 1 00:04:46 Be? Uh, it'll be focusing on the lived reality. So we will be doing an ethnographic research in four Muslim majority context from different regions where we're trying, again, to explore and investigate through a research, research, um, ethnographic research. There is alternative conceptions of marriage and study initiatives for different models of marriage, different from the hierarchical model of marriage that we have in classical jurisprudence, and which is reflected in many of our Muslim, uh, family laws in mi, uh, and so initiatives as well as life experiences. And we'll be doing this research in, uh, uh, Egypt, in Pakistan, in Indonesia, um, and, uh, also, um, in Somaliland
Speaker 0 00:05:31 And Dr. Malki, the, the framework of Islamic feminism. Um, the amazing, uh, development is, you know, besides for fork's work of course, is, um, the engaging with <unk> as well, the, in this book, whereas there were, um, attempts to centralize or ground the, the, uh, argument of Islamic feminism within the Koran self, trying to avoid El what has been done in terms of adaptation to this firm framework to be focusing on El Hadid as well.
Speaker 1 00:06:08 This is a very important question. Thank you for posing it. Um, yes, sometimes Islamic feminist scholars have been, uh, critiqued for focusing too much on the Quran and not engaging substantively with, uh, the sunna, the prophetic tradition, including the Hadid, of course, uh, uh, fa the amazing scholar, Mehi Rest in Peace, uh, was a pioneer in in that area. Uh, and our knowledge, uh, produced through, uh, ua, uh, definitely because we believe in this holistic approach we do, and we try and we work on engaging with Islamic textual tradition from all its different in, its different Johns. So even in our men in charge, we had a chapter on Hadid. This one, we are very, we were very focused on very rigorously at engaging with all the different sciences in Islamic interpretive tradition. So we, in the, for example, the second section we do the sunk, we have scholars who've worked on the Sunna as the Sierra, as well as, um, the <unk> because it's very important since the, in, in the traditional is Islamic legal theory.
Speaker 1 00:07:16 Of course, Koran and Sunna are the two main sources of the law. And, uh, also the important thing in this book is that we have one driving question that guides us all. We have a common, uh, grounds, right? But at the same time, we, um, the authors, the individuals, Oscars, uh, uh, scholars and authors, uh, try to address that question from, uh, their own angle and from their own, uh, perspective and using their own a approach. So we very much also value and appreciate and foreground diversity i in this edited volume. And Hadid is absolutely important. So in, um, for example, uh, in addition to the section that you have in the book on sir, as well as the Hadid three scholars, uh, the first one is co-authored by our colleagues, Dr. She and, uh, Dr. Sara Abna together. It's a co-author chapter, and then you have two on the Hadid by Dr.
Speaker 1 00:08:13 Yamin Amin and Dr. Fa. And you'll find that they have very different approaches, but they're very much interested in the same question. And it was so important because often, uh, people say, okay, well, uh, if there's, if you have a Hadid that on the surface seems to be, um, justifying discrimination I against women, and even misogyny, what do you do with that? Especially if that Hadid is found in <inaudible>. We have a, in his chapter, really engaging with that question and putting forward a very innovative and new methodology of how you can read the Hadid. But again, holistically reading the Hadid in light of the Koran in light of the overall principles of the, of, of Islam, particularly grounded in the Koran, and also, uh, drawing on certain important principles from O. So yes, uh, engaging with Hadid and the different sciences in, in the, uh, in, in Islamic textual tradition, and bringing them together is very much something that is important so that we can make the case for gender equality on a solid, rigorous knowledge. And that's what we're trying to
Speaker 0 00:09:19 Do. Exactly. And I, I believe this is one of the thing, the main things that this book has done, and, um, I foresee it also bringing different schools of feminisms and different school of thoughts, uh, together or in conversation with each other. So for you, as one of the central voices and discussions around gender relations in, in Islam and, uh, gender equality, what does Islamic feminism mean to you, and what do you think this book will be, uh, contributing to in terms of bringing those multiple voices or mo multiplicity of voices together?
Speaker 1 00:09:55 Yeah. Uh, for me, I think Islamic feminism is, is very important, um, field of inquiry. Uh, it's a very, it's a knowledge project, uh, and it, it's interested in doing two things. It's interested in, uh, mapping out tracing, uh, patriarchy, religious patriarchy, and, and how it has been formed. Uh, how have authoritative patriarchal interpretations, whether in the teir or in the FK or in modern family laws that draw from the fk, um, where do they come from? How are they formed, uh, how do we have them and unpacking them. So doing a deconstruction work, but not stopping there. Also doing reconstruction, uh, providing alternatives, readings, uh, not just egalitarian readings, but also a methodology of how to read, uh, our Islamic texts in a new way. Uh, so providing a methodological contribution as well as, uh, uh, new readings. And I see it very important, uh, for, on several levels, it's important in terms of producing transformative knowledge that can contribute to policymaking, to activism, to advocacy, and specifically to reform of the Muslim family law, and making sure that women, scholars, activists have a voice, have a role in the religious domain and in the production of, of knowledge.
Speaker 1 00:11:16 Uh, that's on one hand, but I also see it as contributing to, um, Islamic studies, uh, as a, an academic field, uh, in terms of its methodological contributions, and in terms of how it also highlights really the strong, uh, relationship and, uh, or between knowledge and power and unpacking that.
Speaker 0 00:11:36 Okay, following up on this point, how can we, how can we make sure as a feminist community that this valuable book is actually mainstreamed across different levels and used, referenced and utilized by different communities across Muslim countries? So, yes, we, this is, is a, an amazing contribution in terms of knowledge production to, uh, uh, Islamic studies for sure, to, uh, feminist and feminist theory. But how can we make sure that this reaches where it's supposed to reach to impact change in our societies?
Speaker 1 00:12:10 That is extremely important question. And in muswell, we are very much interested in that. We are interested in producing knowledge. We very much believe in the organic, uh, relationship between scholarship and actives. It's not just knowledge for the sake of knowledge, but knowledge that hopefully can make a change on the ground. And the way we do that is our different kinds of activities, number one, for example, for this, to give you a very concrete example. So this book as well as the, uh, men in charge, uh, it, um, you know, there that we've, uh, produced what is called Feminist Readers Guide. So short summaries of each chapter that has also questions, and then there'll be a reading group where people discuss the chapters. We have capacity building, uh, uh, training courses that we offer all over the world, um, engaging with, um, uh, judges in family courts, lawyers, women's rights activists, university students, um, journalists, uh, to, um, share with them to disseminate this knowledge.
Speaker 1 00:13:13 Uh, we also produce policy briefs and, uh, kind of like short briefs where we highlight the key points that policy makers or advocates can take away, uh, from this knowledge as well as, uh, videos. Uh, so it's absolutely necessary that this be mainstream. And we do try to do that in various activities that we do in, in Alwa as well as we've translated this book, uh, into Arabic by a very well established scholar who also, uh, a professor at CAI University, Dr. Ronda Bak, who, or translated many in charge. Uh, and the Arabic book, uh, Chak will be published, um, sh you know, in, in the coming months. And there will be as well an Arabic launch,
Speaker 0 00:13:57 Dr. Malki, how can we distinguish between Sharia and f uh, in a manner that allows us to lay the foundation of an egalitarian Muslim family law? What's, what's the difference and where can <unk> come in?
Speaker 1 00:14:11 Uh, you know, we believe, uh, that, uh, actually language is also very important. The concepts we use are very important, and often they can be the source of the problem. They can, uh, you know, like, uh, muddy the water. So, um, just to give you a concrete example, when Hola, um, this is the judicial, Hola was, uh, um, legislated in Egypt in 2000. And this is a ho that allows women to petition for Hola divorce judici through, through the court. She doesn't have to have any grounds, no fault grounds. She doesn't have to substantiate any harm, but in exchange, she, and the husband's consent is totally irrelevant. It's not required. And, but she gives up the dower and the post divorce Jews. Now, there was a, a big uproar in Egypt, and one of the arguments, religious arguments that was put forward was that, oh, this is against the Sharia.
Speaker 1 00:15:03 Why is that? Because in, uh, the, the majority opinion among the classical juris was it, they understood Hola as a kind of a divorce that women negotiate, a woman negotiates with her husband, therefore, his consent is necessary. Although the, the, you know, it's based on a verse in, uh, <unk>, uh, 2, 2 29, as well as a, a very famous <unk> <unk> where a woman goes to a prophet Mohamed and tells him, you know, I, my husband hasn't done me any wrong, but I just don't wanna be with them. And he tells her, okay, fine, you're free to go, but you just have to give him back the da. Uh, so people would say in Egypt, oh, this is against the Sharia. But what they actually meant was, this is against a majority opinion in f therefore, we are very, uh, focused in, in, in, um, <unk>. Part of our work is also to clarify, uh, the concepts and the importance of conceptual clarity.
Speaker 1 00:16:05 So for Sharia is the path to God, it is the totality of, um, you know, the, uh, um, the ideal of what God wants us to aspire to it. It is not reducible to law. It is not is the human understanding. It's this important knowledge that our past jus produced in their attempt to understand the Quran and the <unk>. And they did an amazing work, right? And they, but it's a human effort. So we can discuss it, we can revisit it, we can disagree among us, it is not shk. Sharia is the totality, the ideal teachings of God that we all aspire to, and lit etymologically even. It means the path to the water place, you know, the, as we all know, those of us who speak Arabic, right? So, and the same thing, for example, for us, it's also to important to highlight, uh, another, um, difference, which is, is established in fact between Guam and a bad, you know, like, so things that go under the Guam are, you know, can be revisited, can be re whereas a bad, which has to do with the deeds relating, regulating, or concerned with, uh, our relationship with God.
Speaker 1 00:17:17 Ritual specifically. Um, this, there's no room for hti had there. Marriage definitely is under the muk. It can, and family relations, social relations in general can be under the, is under the mak and therefore it can be revisited. So this is a very important question. Concepts and the clarity of concepts and, uh, changing the language, clarifying the language, correcting the language is certainly a big part of our work.
Speaker 0 00:17:44 Um, it's what's interesting, um, is the hola was, was approved as a form of divorce in Egypt, if I'm not mistaken, in 2000. Uh, very recently, an MP in the Kuwaiti parliament, uh, declared that <unk> is not an acceptable or a religious Islamic form of, uh, divorce and should be, uh, banned and Kuwait, believe it or not. Oh, wow. In 2023.
Speaker 1 00:18:10 But that's, that's <laugh>. Yes, yes. The struggle goes on.
Speaker 0 00:18:15 The struggle goes on. And as long as women are not seen as active agents in, um, tackling or dealing with the sacred text, we are influenced easily by what men say. So if an parliamentarian says, you know, although, you know, he, he could have no background in Sharia, no background in Islamic studies, but because he's a man and he has priority access, let's say to the sacred text, how can we make sure that women are educated, women have access and know that they have, um, the right, but also the responsibility, uh, of protecting their rights through having that access to the Koran?
Speaker 1 00:19:00 Uh, I mean, that's so important. That's extremely important. And that is at the core of our mission and what we aspire for, that women to be producers of knowledge, to be teachers, to be, to have a place, to have a role in the production of knowledge. And its dissemination as well. We try to, uh, we do it ourselves in busa, WABA through this collaborative work between different women's scholars as well as men. Men have this, but also really, uh, disseminating this knowledge and making it accessible through various ways in university settings, but also like these other mainstream, uh, setting, um, mo, uh, you know, uh, formats as we discussed, uh, earlier. And, uh, I, you are absolutely right. Uh, it is in, in really crucial, uh, that women have that knowledge. I've done, uh, research. I'm originally trained as an anthropologist, and I've done research, uh, in Egypt as well as in Finland, you know, on Muslim family law, and specifically on women's engagements with, uh, sacred texts and with laws.
Speaker 1 00:20:05 And I have seen how, uh, real through ethnographic research, again and again, how it really makes a big difference when women have the knowledge, uh, of, um, the laws, uh, of the textual tradition of their rights, knowing and, uh, really makes a difference. There's research that proves that again and again, another thing that we found from research, not only my own research, but other research done by many, uh, colleagues in different parts of the world, um, and focusing on Muslim communities, is that women more than ever are hungry for religious knowledge and are pursuing it from various ways, but there are different kinds of voices, religious voices, and religious knowledge. So it's, it's an incumbent upon us that we are out there and we put, uh, provide that knowledge and make it accessible.
Speaker 0 00:20:57 Um, my final question for you, what are the challenges? What are the challenges you face as a scholar, and what are the challenges that Muslim or Islamic feminist faith on daily basis to try to, to disseminate the, the knowledge? Just an example of this is this valuable book. What would you think the obstacles would be for you to disseminate the knowledge?
Speaker 1 00:21:21 Um, well, I think, uh, of course sometimes, um, it, it is known that in our part of the world, and I'm talking about the, the Arab world, uh, as well, I would say in quite a few Muslim majority context, but let's to be more specific, the Arab world, um, uh, the feminism has a very bad reputation. Uh, it is, um, associated with, um, uh, cultural imperialism. It is seen as something imposed from the west. Um, it is often, there's, there's a very common reductionist understanding that there is one kind of feminism, and it's a feminism that comes from the west that is, uh, hates men, that is out to destroy our families and lead to a divorce and, and, and create this adversarial relationship between men and women. Um, and there might be that kind of feminist plus, but feminist comes in all kinds of, uh, ki uh, trends.
Speaker 1 00:22:19 And of course, we have to accept also and acknowledge that there was western feminism that was, uh, um, in, you know, that enabled colonialism and worked with it. Uh, so we have that legacy in our part of the world also. So sometimes the term itself, uh, might be an obstacle. And we do have very important Islamic feminist scholars who they themselves have an issue with the term. They, they, they agree and they completely, uh, are committed to the work, the nature of the work, the goal of the work. Uh, but they have an issue with the term, you know? And so that's one challenge. So sometimes I remember like 2015, I was in this meeting in Alexandria, um, uh, with, uh, an ngo. It was a con, uh, an org, uh, like a conference organized by an ngo o uh, and we had, uh, alma religious scholars, uh, from Egypt, from the Zahar, but as well as from other Arab countries.
Speaker 1 00:23:17 And we were talking about, uh, in Arabic Israel, islamia, uh, Islamic feminism, and there were a lot of resistance. Uh, what is this, Israel islamia. Uh, but once we got to the, the core of the issues like, okay, what, what do the, uh, books of f say? What does the quan say? Uh, what are the general, the central principles of, uh, Islam? Uh, how about now that we are nation states, what do our constitution say? How do we understand citizenship? And once we got to the substance of it, there was a lot of space and common ground where we could debate and discuss and agree. So one, also have to be strategic, like if, uh, because it, it's, um, we can't also be talking simply to the people who be, are like-minded, like, you know. Uh, so in order to create that constructive debate, we do engage with religious scholars.
Speaker 1 00:24:12 Uh, we've done it in Morocco, we've done it with, uh, religious scholars in, in Palestine, uh, through Zoom and also, uh, in Egypt several times. It's not easy by any means. Uh, we try not to get bogged done with the terminology and terms about this, but talk about the substance and start with the common grounds and try to have a constructive dialogue. The other challenge that we often have, uh, and I'm sure Dr. May you're familiar with it also, is that we are told you don't have authority. You don't have, uh, uh, you are not traditionally trained <laugh>. Who are you to talk about these things? Uh, and, um, yeah, and, and, but then when we try to show and show that, okay, no, we've done our homework. We are as a, as scholar activist, we, we've done the work. We know the primary text, we know the language, we know the methodology of the past jurist and the exigence, and, and, you know, and we are trying to make, we are trying to make a case on a scientific basis.
Speaker 1 00:25:12 Uh, we make some headways, but there are also these, uh, uh, challenges. So I think one way is to strategically, uh, uh, you know, try to be aware and cognizant, like who are we engaging with? What works? How can we create a common ground so that we can have a, a constructive dialogue with people who even who disagree with us, so that we can get somewhere. Uh, but at the same time, to be aware sometimes of the limitations and try to make headway in some spaces and be aware in other spaces, it might, uh, take longer, but I'm very optimistic also. So I remember that was 2015, as I told you, and there was a, this resistance. So what is this <inaudible> since then? Uh, people have been talking about it a lot in Egypt, and they've been talks about it. And right just before we started our conversation now, I was doing, I'm working on a book now about Islamic feminist, and I was doing some research going through, uh, the newspapers in Egypt, and there was this, uh, one of the magazines, uh, has done like an, um, 17 issues and counting about Nwe Islamia, uh, Islamic feminist, which is very interesting.
Speaker 1 00:26:27 So, uh, there are challenges, but I think, um, uh, we, we, we need to, uh, continue being en engaged, I would say.
Speaker 0 00:26:37 Yeah. And I think we, uh, you have, uh, your heart in the right place because I love, um, what you said said about a scholar activist. Um, I think I wanna adapt to this, if you don't mind, from now on, um, uh, a scholar activist, exactly. As long as the knowledge we're producing is for the sake of, uh, um, to better our communities, to, uh, make the, uh, a constructive change within our communities, um, then even our work and the efforts we put into books that take three and four years are worth, uh, worth putting, I guess
Speaker 1 00:27:11 <laugh>, I, I totally agree with you. I totally, and, and also, um, I, I find this work with, because, you know, I work at the University of Helsinki and I work, uh, and I'm part of the Muk. I really find it very, my work with mu salwa extremely rewarding on so many levels, most of all, spiritually, also, you know, spiritually, because we live all of us Muslims than Muslims, we live in very, uh, difficult times and more than ever, I think we live in times where we really need to, um, uh, find our ethical moorings and to be grounded in it and to do this kind of work, um, I think makes one, uh, be aware of and what is relevant, what is important, and, and most of all, to do it collaboratively and to, you know, and, uh, um, and in a way that, um, in a, that helps us also, uh, combat our ego because we're human nature, you know? And, and not to take ourselves very seriously and to be connected. And it's not just about me, but also what is, what is good for all of
Speaker 0 00:28:19 Us. I agree. I agree. Um, lovely. Thank you, sir. Dr. Malki, thank you so much, uh, for being with us and the woman of the Middle East podcast. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 00:28:28 Thank you so much.
Speaker 0 00:28:30 Thank you. Your
Speaker 1 00:28:31 Pleasure has been mine.
Speaker 0 00:28:32 This is Women of the Middle East podcast. Hope you enjoyed this episode of season five, to stay up to date with women of the Middle East podcast. You can subscribe and don't forget to rate us. If you would like to contact me directly, you can do so on Instagram or Twitter or via email. This is Women of the Middle East.
