Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:03 Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast, women of the Middle East. This podcast relates the realities of Arab woman and their rich and diverse experiences. It's aims to present the multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East. My name is a Maki. I'm a feminist, scholar and educator. This is Women of the Middle East podcast. This is season four woman voices across genres where I will be speaking to women producing feminist content across different genres and outlets. These courageous voices delve into untapped areas such as women with disability, hybrid identities, intergenerational trauma, feminist narrative, and activism, and much, much more. I'm your host, Maki, contributing to creating a new narrative about us by us. This is Women of the Middle East WhatsApp. Our guests in this episode is Aza Baha, who is a journalist and a senior TV anchor and editor-in-chief at Vance Vanka News channel, public speaker trainer, and a gender diversity advocate. Many, many areas to govern and many things to talk about. She's also the founder of Taja Sports, a media platform dedicated to women's sports and the Mina region created in March, 2021. Aziza, lovely to have you on Women of the Middle East podcast, and congratulations on your recent Fama bin Barrak Women's Sports Award, being the Arab Quilts best sports journalist.
Speaker 2 00:01:38 Thank you so much, and thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be with you,
Speaker 1 00:01:41 AMA, it's a pleasure having you. Uh, I think the Taja as a platform is, um, unlike any other platforms. It's focused on women, but women in Mina region specifically and in a public sphere that has been heavily dominated by men. Tell me more about why you founded Taja.
Speaker 2 00:02:01 Well, as you said, um, um, I'm a gender equality advocate, so I've been, I've been doing this for many years as a keynote speaker. I am doing also this in my shows myself, trying to shed light on different women in different, uh, areas. And, um, I started, um, meeting with some sports women and champions and here in the stories, and I was hearing exactly the same thing. Something that is global, by the way. Not only in our region, but still in our region. There are other biases, sometimes cultural, sometimes traditional, that were harm, uh, in a way, their path, uh, to the summits. And, um, I decided as I've been a journalist for almost 25 years now, to combine with this advocacy for gender equality and my work as a journalist and try to offer, uh, even a small platform to those women to do two things. Actually. One of them, them is to promote sport among, uh, women, all the women of the region who are more than, uh, 200 million, uh, women in our region, but also to highlight women's sport achievements. And there are so many, uh, uh, in the region as well,
Speaker 1 00:03:16 Uh, still venturing into an area that first has been exclusive to men and Mina second, uh, cell is controversial as an area for women to practice, you know, their agency in on. Um, and three under traditional scrutiny, uh, as it's, you know, whether it is culturally appropriate or not, uh, women, you know, woman in sports. How easy was it to find funding for this project? Um, how easy was it to find, um, support, whether, you know, it's funding or any kind support for this project?
Speaker 2 00:03:52 Well, I'd say that it's not easy, but it's certainly easier than for the women in the sport fields themselves, the champions, the athletes, et cetera. But still, I had to, uh, fund it myself, uh, at the beginning. And, uh, because I was trying to discuss with, uh, people who could help and trying even like business women and businessmen and trying to tell them that they're not, should not, uh, look at it as a project in a marketing view or a marketing point of view, but they have to think about it on some as something to support in a csr, uh, point of view. And, um, but I also had the chance actually to meet with some great people, uh, especially starting as we started a Moroccan originally. So I started doing a lot of things at, uh, in Morocco, uh, related to, for, for example, the video content we're doing and the documentary I've done, et cetera.
Speaker 2 00:04:52 And I had a chance to meet with some great partners. Um, one of them is a great, uh, feminist, um, his, um, his name is, uh, uh, Eunice Mufi. And he was one of the great guys. I called at the beginning, he's the boss of, uh, a big company in Morocco, and he told me, you don't need to tell me more. I have a girl and I know that I have to help shape a better future for all the girls. So that was one of the great things. Um, but not easy, of course, because I know that I'm talking about a niche. I'm talking about something that is not really highlighted till now. But I do believe that we all have a responsibility some somehow, and we all have to do something. If it lasts six months, it'll last six months. It, it fit last for a lifetime, then it's good for all of us.
Speaker 2 00:05:44 And one of the things I've been told at the beginning was, uh, how can you, uh, like cover events, sports events for women? There are not that many actually. There are a lot of things going on for women's sport, but also even if not waiting for the countries to develop their strategy towards, uh, women's sport. A lot of things has been done by women themselves fighting sometimes alone, against all the biases you talked about, tradition or culture or whatever. And, uh, they've been doing great thing in the, in the main region, and I'm so, so proud. Just to shade some light on that,
Speaker 1 00:06:20 As a Moroccan journalist and a gender equality advocate, tell us a bit more about your documentary, the documentary you produced, and why is it that you covered, you know, that area, these women in specific?
Speaker 2 00:06:36 Well, um, when we started Taja, uh, we had an online, uh, magazine called, uh, Taja, Taja Sport Magazine. And we, uh, decided because we saw that there is a lack of, uh, data on women's sport in all the regions. So we decided that through the website we will be covering all the events and highlighting all the achievements. But on the magazine, which, uh, was issued twice a year, the idea was to go and focus on one country each time to get this data that we're like, so we started by Morocco, and I'm a girl called the sk at that time she was a footballer, senior footballer in Morocco, and she's playing in the national team. So we kept in touch and I was like, I was so surprised that I didn't knew her name before mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, even if she, she's done a lot of great things in her career.
Speaker 2 00:07:27 So I kept in touch and started looking at the national team, the national women team for football in Morocco. And then, uh, Morocco was chosen to host the Wacon, the women African Cup of Nations. And then if you host, it means that your, your team is qualified directly. So I wanted to make sure people in Morocco know their team, uh, because I knew that they don't, uh, lot of, lot of the media, sport media were not really covering women's football. So I was thinking about doing something and I found the help I needed and went to film a documentary. And, um, the, uh, the Moroccan Football Association helped me and open the doors so that I can meet with them and show their stories. So as, uh, used to say, uh, um, I didn't do a documentary on sport, I did a documentary on stories, human stories of this team, and it helped actually, uh, meet the public and make the public know their team before the Wacom mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I'm, I was so happy cuz it covered for France, Vanka, the Wacon, and I was happy to see that all the stadiums were full of people during the competition. And that's a good thing because, uh, it, uh, comes against the stereotype that women's football does not, not interest any, anyone, but actually it shows that if as media we do our job, which is covering and highlighting people will follow, and if people follow sponsors can follow after.
Speaker 1 00:09:07 Definitely. Yes. Yes. Makes sense. Um, what do you think the reception of, of, um, uh, this documentary in Morocco, do you think it's contributing to a kind of a social change, uh, social norms, um, uh, alteration? Do you think documentaries can really, um, alter people's perception, uh, of, of gender roles, let's say?
Speaker 2 00:09:35 I hope so, actually. I hope so. I think that everything we do can help shift the mentalities can, can help actually change and, and sometimes, um, uh, expose those that, uh, barriers. And we need all of us. Like, I'm not saying that my documentary or any documentary will change, uh, lives of people, but if my documentary can just make one girl in Miraco say, oh God, that's good. I wanna play football, then I'm so happy. Like, if I help anyone, uh, um, shred the, the, the glass ceiling, then that, that's the thing. So this is why I'm talking about irresponsibility. I'm not like, I'm proud of what I've done, but I'm sure of course, that it's not my documentary that will change things. But again, uh, more than a million people saw the documentary on YouTube between us and our sponsor, but Million saw it on TV because they won on the national tv.
Speaker 2 00:10:39 So yeah, maybe after, after that, uh, a dad or a mom will be convinced that yes, his or her daughter can play football and it's a good thing. Look, look at the girls. They, they're, they've become champions now and they're raising the flag of their country really high, and they're the first Arab country to qualify to the word cup. So it's a great thing. But I, I also believe, um, I'm, I've been work working on TV for 16 years now, and I believe the power of the image, and I think they can hear things. You can read things, but see them, that's something that can change things.
Speaker 1 00:11:14 Oh, uh, I agree with you. Uh, the power of image, um, and the power of role modeling, and if you can see that exactly, uh, and if our kids can see that this is a potential future for them as well, which is amazing, I think, uh, one of my girls would, would become a foot follower. <laugh>. That be
Speaker 2 00:11:34 Good? That would be good.
Speaker 1 00:11:37 Let's talk Aziza about women and media. Now, your experience as a journalist includes working in Morocco, Canada, Kenya, and France. If we just re try reduce it, you know, just for the sake of comparison to East and West, how would you describe your experience as a woman journalist? Okay. In terms of opportunity, reaching upper editorial positions, agency between east and west?
Speaker 2 00:12:07 What do you mean by east and west? Let's
Speaker 1 00:12:09 Assume like, as, as, as a, as an Arab woman or as a woman from the Meina region, um, who has experience in both East Okay. And West, and again, I'm using them, just know
Speaker 2 00:12:23 What you mean. Uh, okay, okay. Like, like what, what we call south and north,
Speaker 1 00:12:28 South and north Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:12:30 As African and, uh, as African and, uh, as Moroccan. Exactly. Well, let me tell you something. I've been, I've been member of different association for journalists and women's journalists. Um, one of the things I discovered is that women journalists do face exactly the same biases all around the world. That's one of the thing. Then we have some specified difficulties that we do, uh, um, we do encounter in, in our, uh, region. It's absolutely, we do say, uh, uh, usually, uh, that journalism is not an easy job, man, but it's not an easy job and for women and men by way. But when you are women, it's, it's a bit harder because, um, you pointed something very important being the Chinese citizen think was being promoted then to, uh, an editor in chief or to director of a channel of a newspaper, or that's difficult. So we saw a lot of women as journalists, but the more you go upper in the hierarchy, the less you saw them.
Speaker 2 00:13:36 And, uh, and that's, that's bias. It, it, it can be conscious or unconscious bias, but it's still the same bias for us. Not easy. You have to fight for every inch, uh, that you, you, you want to have. And, um, but what I say is journalism is, uh, one of the jobs you do by passion. Mm-hmm. You don't become journalist because you think you're gonna earn a lot of money because you will not, but you did that by passion, and passion helps you actually, and in this particular area as well, I think that was still, uh, fighting against a lot of biases. I saw myself, like, I had a lot of, uh, men sometimes who went against the fact that I wanted to be promoted or I wanted to be head of a department or, and they were like, she's young, she's a woman, she's whatever.
Speaker 2 00:14:29 But while I do tell a lot of exam, I'm also, um, teaching as a professor in, um, in the, uh, in school of journalism here in France. But why do tell the girls, uh, I am met with is when people are biased towards you think of something, it's a problem in the glasses they're wearing, not you. So I don't care about how people look at me. I care about who I am, what I'm, I'm, I'm doing what I'm building, and I built something. I'm trying to build something strong, not only for me, but for others, because I do believe, as you said, in the power of rural models, models, and this is why I think that as women in all the areas, we have a huge responsibility, which is to talk about our journey, our career, because that can inspire others, but can help them also feel that they're not alone. Yeah. Facing all the difficulties they're facing.
Speaker 1 00:15:29 And without romanticizing it, because again, media and the media industry is, is a very tough industry to begin. That's good for, again, as a woman, and we know it, that it's a global phenomena. It's not just in the Arab world. But, and I'm gonna make an assumption here, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that, um, in the Arab world, there's a lack of protection. So you would see that sexual harassment in the media industry, you know, that women face, uh, is much more, um, now again, this is an assumption that I'm making, but I would love to hear from you. Do, do you agree?
Speaker 2 00:16:04 Yeah, I do agree with you. I think that women in general, not only in media by the way, are not that well protected in a lot of countries in our itin and did not fight against the whole system sometimes, because sometimes even if you have the law with you, you will go, for example, to fill a report on somebody, but then how the policeman will react, how the judge will react, how people round will react, telling you how dare you actually that you're taking it to the port, for example. So it's absolutely not easy. And as you said, and again, you can have in some countries the law, it's all written there, but do we really use them? Do we really protect, uh, the women in those countries? I'm not sure. And one is great in our region is, um, women in all our countries learn to fight for their rights.
Speaker 2 00:17:02 They're not, they're not waiting and crying and asking for help. They're doing it. They're doing it because it, it is time in all, and I'm, I'm just going to take a sports metaphor. It's time for all the women just to leave the bench and go on the field, because it's more than time actually to do things. And sometimes when you can look at it, when I thought about football, like in Morocco in the nineties, in the eighties there, there were a lot of women playing and actually playing in the street with boys, et cetera, et cetera. When you accept, uh, the glass sailing or the, or, or the glass walls or whatever, you are part of the pro the problem. So do not accept them. Do not trigger the negative identity. Not because I, I'm a woman, I should accept the fact that there are things they cannot do, or there are fields they cannot enter to or whatever.
Speaker 2 00:17:57 No, we have to start with ourselves because sometimes it's not easy to change the others. But if you, we change ourselves, then we can fight the bias little bit more and network for that. And that's very important because we will not have the help needed, we have to help each others, we have to lift each other up. And that's not easy, by the way. Like for example, when I founded Taja, I started with something genuine. I was thinking that maybe if I go to women businesswomen first, they will interact with the idea more. Hmm. And it was the opposite actually. A lot of them didn't even want to talk about gender equality. Sometimes it's this queen B syndrome, I'm there, so please do not talk to me about gender equality because I want to fit in. And fitting in for them was not talking about them as women. So when I was like trying to tell them that we are trying to do something, uh, for women, and they were like, yeah, just get on the line. There are a lot of other people asking for help. And I was more, um, successful with men feminist than with some women actually. Uh, that for me should be feminist. And in a lot of countries, even in France, when you say I'm a feminist, you have to add, but, and then explain what it means so that you can, you can disarm the threat for people.
Speaker 1 00:19:27 A same here. Um, and I find it really, um, hilarious sometimes, uh, when I speak to someone who obviously is a feminist, right? All of her work, all of her causes social justice, um, equality, education for women and children. And then the moment I say, do you perceive yourself as a feminist? She goes like, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not. So there is, I think as an educator, I think maybe we need to educate people to what feminism means to us. It's not about burning our bras, definitely. It's not about, uh, breaking, um, uh, the family. It's not about breaking family values. It's on the contrary. It's about solidifying family values, uh, uh, um, building the values, uh, of equality in a family, starting from the family is the biggest challenge we face here. Uh, and the biggest achievement we might, you know, um, reach to. But I, I hear you very well, and when you could talk about women and women participation in supporting other women, it shocks me to the core that they don't, maybe one because the field is very narrow and they don't want the competition. Second, it could be that, um, and I think it's, it, it is because patriarchy has no gender. You know, those are patriarchal mentalities in, in engraved, and, you know, they've been indoctrinate, I
Speaker 2 00:20:57 Think. Yeah. Some suggested actually in there. And, and, and it's a bitty, because we, we really do need each other. Yeah. Uh, like sometimes it's so easy to criticize each other anyway. But if you think about younger generations, if you think about the other girls and women, then when you have, uh, the possibility to be the voice for the voiceless, then please do it. Exactly. And please help build something. Um, again, I'm saying all what I've been doing for, uh, gender equality advocates, it's like, it's a small, small thing. But I do think and do believe that if everybody's doing their small part of the job, then the job can be done. Yeah. But if we just quit from the beginning, because it's hard, it's not easy, it's not, then we will not achieve anything. And I think that women on top positions do have huge responsibility, and I do tell them not only to help Tasha, but to help whatever you can to fight the bias and the gender bias and do something for, for the other women.
Speaker 1 00:22:10 Definitely. I, I agree with you. And if each woman just thinks that, um, thinks, and, and if, if we need the cause to hit home, uh, think about the daughter you have or you might have, uh, um, and, and see the future and, and hope,
Speaker 2 00:22:29 Wish for best, even yourself. I mean, even if you don't have a daughter, uh, just think about yourself when you were a young girl. Would you like somebody to help you? Would you like somebody to inspire you to make you just dream of jobs that you might be able to do that? That's the thing. Yeah. Uh, what I reacted to a daughter is just because we have this other problem, which is that, uh, we define women by motherhood. Yes. And I mean, I'm not defined by the fact that I can or not, uh, have children. And sometimes when we think, uh, about, uh, women being in the top position and we're like, we asking her all the time, the first question is how do you manage between your family and life Exactly. And your job. Exactly. This. Does anybody ask this question to a guy in the top position?
Speaker 2 00:23:22 Never. He's a dad and he should be doing exactly the same thing towards his family than a woman. And I'm not, I'm not like it, I'm not changing and shifting mentalities, but we do have a responsibility, all of us, when, when we have a family, everybody has a responsibility. Uh, and I mean, yeah. Uh, and hopefully everybody will play their role, but just stop. And they, they did, there's a, an association that did a great job here in, uh, in France and did interviews to mark the interviews to world women. And they did interviews with big bosses, uh, men. And they were asking them exactly those questions. Like, how do you manage? And did you really believe one day you will be at this position? Or what does that mean for the little boy? You were, and the guys interviewed were just laughing. And they were like, what are those questions, <laugh>? And they were, this is exactly why we ask women. So
Speaker 1 00:24:20 Exactly. This is why I do not, um, delete a question, uh, as such if it was sent to me in advance. On the contrary, I let, I, I allow the journalist to ask it, okay? So I would not shame her or him, but to, to try to change the narrative, right? It's like, oh, interesting. But why am I asked this question? Is it because I'm a, I'm, I'm a woman. Okay. What if I wasn't a mother? And besides, I, I'm with you, by the way. Uh, Aziza 100%. Um, one of the earliest remarks that really hit me and people didn't understand why I was annoyed by was, uh, the fact that, you know, any man would come into my office and ask me, what should I call you? The mother of whom? I'm like, what? <laugh>? Yeah. My name is Emil and you know, I'm, I'm a professor. Uh, I'm a dean. You can call me professor, Dr. Dean. Right. But, uh, no, don't reduce me to a certain type or prototype that you understand and know how to communicate with, uh, when I'm, what I meant by the child or the daughter, the inner inner child that
Speaker 2 00:25:25 I know. I know. I just wanted to clarify that point. Yes. Cause I know it's important for others. I I know exactly what you think
Speaker 1 00:25:31 About it. Yes, definitely. Definitely. I, I agree with you. We're on the same page. Okay. Now moving on from, so media, um, uh, journalist, uh, a woman, uh, from the MENA region and media, but still living in France. So, uh, you are living in Europe at a time where the negative sentiments against Muslims are growing, right. And the right movements are gaining political power. How do you see this impacting you as a person? Of course, uh, but also as a woman in media?
Speaker 2 00:26:07 Um, look, um, I, I didn't, I didn't face that. Me personally. Okay. But the good thing maybe, um, well it definitely, there are populists, uh, uh, parties just today gaining actually, uh, space in a lot of countries anyway. Um, and we saw that the, uh, the, the right here, the extreme right was, uh, on the second actually position in the presidential elections here in, uh, France. But, uh, I do not focus on that. I just know that here, what I can do is that I can fight for my rights. And they do have rights. Uh, it's, uh, come to what we said, uh, before, um, like I know I'm aware of it. And part of my work also is, um, to talk also, uh, to do my job as a journalist, to cover everything, uh, relate to that. And, um, it, it comes at the end.
Speaker 2 00:27:12 It comes to something we said before. It's, we, all of us do have a responsibility. Like when we have an election, uh, used to talk to people, to women and say like, do you vote? Do you vote? Because if you think that, um, extremism is a danger and a threat to our democracy, then you have to vote. And you cannot just, uh, give the space and leave the public space and leave your duties and then come to criticize them after, uh, like in all the areas, uh, and privileged areas where it can be a problem for them. If, if the, the rights in the extreme right, uh, comes to power, then also a lot of associations, for example, and the NGOs are working there just to give a political conscious and make people vote, for example. So what I think in is in all our countries, actually, um, democracy is fragile and we have to fight for it anyway. And the good thing is to fight for it and to fight to have your rights and have them fight when you need them, and you can protect yourself. And that, that's how I, I see things. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:28:28 Um, you know, I always say that, um, as an individual, as a woman who, um, who's an advocate, who is an activist, she might be actually safer living in Europe because there is the legal system that protects her, right? But as an individual, but if you are a part of a, an organization, uh, it would be much better to be situated in the Arab world because an, an association or an organization has the power to move things. The individual sometimes don't. And if they do, they they have, uh, it takes longer, you know? Um, do you agree? Like, do you think women activists are, well, if you see the reality and the status quo, there are many women who have left and fled their countries, right? Uh, seeking protection because at least they've got the protection, they've got the legal system that ensures the protection of the individual, whether it's a woman or a man. Um, do you think, um, we need to flee or do you need, do we need to live abroad to be able to, uh, become activists?
Speaker 2 00:29:44 No, I will not see that. Uh, I will not say that cuz I don't see it. Uh, I know a lot of women activists and great women activists who lived in, uh, in my country in Morocco, for example, in Tunisia, in Nigeria, in Egypt for example. And we saw that a lot in the Gulf region, in all those countries. Women have been fighting, uh, for decades, uh, if not more. And they didn't wait to flee the country, uh, to do whatever. When you, uh, go to live out of your country, you have reasons to go out of your country, your own reasons. And I'm not, uh, shaming or blaming anyone, but you can do things inside and outside, uh, because yes, definitely you have more, more freedom as a woman. Uh, sometimes outside you have the possibility to protect yourself. And sometimes inside it's not easy.
Speaker 2 00:30:37 Uh, neither. I mean, when you see in some countries where, um, uh, rape is, is still present and, and women are still suffering from a, until lately they were even sometimes forced to marry the rapist. When you see women who can still be stoned to death in some countries, when you can see women who, uh, cannot do so many things that a man can do, then there is a problem. And even if you are an organization, still is a problem. But the most important thing is just to fight when you can. I'm not saying that all women can should fight because sometimes it's just not easy and it's a threat to your life. And still, like around women, we, we saw in not, not only in the main region, when you see Afghanistan, Pakistan, et cetera, and women India or whatever, women sometimes are just killed for being a woman.
Speaker 2 00:31:33 Women are killed because they said no. Uh, and still today, and we are in 2022, uh, you can be, you can be raped because you wanted just to get spot in your public, uh, uh, place. And I think that women are still facing a lot of things, but I do also because I'm a positive person, do think that women are capable of such huge things and they are doing them. And if all of our countries are where they are now, women participated to it. And if we allow women, and if we let women play their, their role and play their job, uh, and do whatever they can do, or God, how our countries will benefit from all of this and economically, socially, and whatever, I'm not talking just as a militant or an advocate, but I'm talking even about business, about, uh, about like the, the money we can have if we, because we have half of the society and sometimes are, are prevented from going to some jobs or whatever. And things can change for our countries in a, in good way if we just stop, stop really discriminating women.
Speaker 1 00:32:46 Hmm. And going back to what you said about, uh, going to business women, um, and um, that those business women were not interested in sponsoring our funding, uh, Taja or you know, or other women, but in other area or field, uh, I would say it is our ethical role as women organizations and women associations to support women to, um, uh, to negotiate not the only, the law, but also the practices of the law to make sure that all women are protected within our societies, all women, regardless of their backgrounds. And, um, I think it's always nice to see you. I'll wait this time virtually <laugh>. I hope next time we, I see you and either France or, or in Doha.
Speaker 2 00:33:35 Uh, nice. Hope
Speaker 1 00:33:37 I was a very engaging discussion as usual. And thank you so much for being with us and a woman of the Middle East podcast.
Speaker 2 00:33:44 Thank you so much. And thank you for giving, uh, exactly. We can given the mic to women from the region to talk also, uh, about what they're doing. So thank you so much for everything you're doing, Amal for for women as well.
Speaker 1 00:33:55 Thank you so much, Aziza. Thank you. Thank you for listening and watching to stay up to date with women of the Middle East podcast. You can subscribe and don't forget to rate us. If you would like to contact me directly, you can do so on Instagram or Twitter or via email. This is Women of the Middle East podcast.
