Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast. This podcast relates the realities of Arab women and their rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East. Season five is a collaboration between MOA and Women of the Middle East Podcast, as we'll be discussing MU's latest book, justice and Beauty, and Muslim Male towards egalitarian ethics and laws published by One World Academic in December of 2022. My name is Amal Malki. I'm a feminist scholar and an educator. This is Women of the Middle East Podcast.
Speaker 1 00:00:37 Hello and welcome to a special episode of Women of the Middle East podcast. Today I will be your host. My name is Mez Ju Alca. I am an H B K U alumni of the Women's Society and Development Program, as well as content creator on Women of the Middle East podcast. Today I will be facilitating our conversation regarding Season five of Women of the Middle East podcast. And collaboration with Muah. Muah is a global movement for equality and justice in the Muslim family. Joining me as speakers will be some of our very own H B K U Digital Humanities and Women's Society and Development students, sun Side, Michaela Rua and Hat Rashti. Hi guys. Thank you for joining us today. Um, before we start our conversation, how about you tell us a bit about yourselves, your background, so that our listeners and viewers can get a little bit of, uh, insight into what we have to offer into today's discussion.
Speaker 2 00:01:27 Thank you, Ms. Do for, for, for having us today and for the invitation. It's really, um, nice theme here in your company and with, with my colleagues. Um, so my name is Hatin. Um, I'm from Morocco and I am a second year student at the Women's Society and Development Program at H B K U. Um, it's been my sixth year here in in Qatar, and my research looks at the intersection of migration, gender, sexuality, and health, uh, particularly in the context of mid the Eastern refugees, um, in Greece. Um, so that's kind of like the scholarly angle I'm coming into this, um, as well as I do have a feminist commitment to organizing and scholarship that kind of advances, um, um, um, the rights of, of, of gender and sexual minorities and minoritized folks in the region. So,
Speaker 3 00:02:13 Um, thank you so much for having me. Uh, it's really, uh, an honor to be here. I'm Sin Sins. I'm a graduate. I'm a fresh graduate from Women's Society and Development Program at H P K U. Um, in my thesis, I was basically exploring generational differences between Pakistani migrant woman in their feelings of belonging to Qatar. So I was looking at how, um, like there are different themes of like Phala system, uh, the condition of their, of their ascending country and things like this and how this impacts their lives and, uh, their financial status and everything. Other than that, um, I've, I've had the chance to work on Jordanian woman's, uh, marriage rights and divorce rights, uh, at H B K U.
Speaker 4 00:03:01 Hi, thank you so much for inviting me. Uh, I'm Michel, I'm also fresh graduate from H B K U in the Master of Women's Society and Development. Uh, my thesis thesis was about, uh, the politics of family reproduction and men's infertility in Qatar. And I also did the research on women and Islam, but from a historical perspective.
Speaker 1 00:03:20 So let's get right into it. As I'm pretty sure you guys have all watched Season Five's episodes. My first question to you guys is what were your general reflections, opinions? What struck you the most? I think
Speaker 2 00:03:32 The book is really, um, a needed intervention. I think, um, in scholarly work, both in practice in terms of Islamic feminist feminism. I think it's situated within a second wave that is kind of sort of trying to, um, understand and foreground, um, feminism within, um, interpretations that move beyond just Quranic interpretations, but are also grounded in tah and hadith, which is, um, less engaged with in the first wave, um, Islamic feminists where the, the kind of task was basically to revive the interpretation of Quran. Um, so I think it's a very much needed intervention and also it's situated within the institution that is, um, uh, very foundational in the construction of, of, you know, um, of selfhood in, in the Muslim world and Muslim communities, which is the family, right? So the first part when we're kind of socialized and brought into is the family.
Speaker 2 00:04:21 So it's important to see how the family interact, intersects with state laws, with um, norms, and to try to understand it from a feminist perspective that is necessarily grounded within the Islamic tradition and Islamic scholarship. So I think what this project is doing is, is very needed and is, it's, it's, it's very important, but I think what's even more impressive, at least from my perspective, is from the, the work that is built around this book. So it's not just a book. There is also guides, feminist guides on the MUA projects that you can read this book. There are questions and these guides. There's also, um, um, um, a bunch of kind of reading if you want to do a reading group. There are like questions that can guide these reading groups. So there's an infrastructure that is built around this book. So it's very much kind of a book meant for practice, uh, rather than just, you know, an academic exercise that is going to, you know, scholarships. So I think this is really important for forging kind of, um, solidarities between people who are thinking about it intellectually in the universities on these structures and people who are actually practicing in it, doing it in laws and policy briefs, et cetera. So this kind of divide is also brought together within this book project, and I think that's really amazing and something to be celebrated.
Speaker 3 00:05:25 Um, for me also, I, I agree with Hatim. Uh, first of all, I think like the project is extremely interesting. I really enjoyed reading and listening to the podcasts. And as Hatim said, I love that there were guides and there were questions. And um, like the podcast in itself I think makes it more accessible than when you look at the guide. It makes it like, into smaller chunks so you can begin like slowly to understand like these larger concepts. So I found like it easier to understand, cuz you take it bit by bit. You get to hear, of course the people, uh, in the episodes, and then you read like the shorter versions and then the larger versions and the diagrams and everything, uh, and the guide, um, I think it makes it very easy. Um, what struck me the most about the book was a part about beauty and like how that was taken in the chapter in in different ways. Uh, when we go on, I, I, I will talk about how much I love the part about spirituality, but I, let me come speak.
Speaker 4 00:06:23 Uh, I really like that we heard from, uh, those who are usually excluded. Like mainly there is a lot of women who contributed, they did to the book, uh, Muslim woman. And I think usually we speak about Muslim women, but we don't hear them even, I mean, Muslim women, there's a huge diversity inside this category. But, so I find it very interest, interesting, the positionality of the authors, uh, of the book. And I was really struck, struck by the like how, uh, the, in the, through the chapters, uh, some events or some facts which has been marginalized were put in the center to reflect on it and to offer an alternative to the Germanic discourse. And I find it very, uh, important is
Speaker 2 00:07:06 Building on, on these conversations. It's also that the book is not only a thematic contribution, so we just don't only hear from women with diverse backgrounds from how they interpret and understand, you know, um, Muslim family and Muslim family laws, but also it's a methodological intervention. So we see a lot of chapters are, are giving us methods to interpret texts. They're giving us methods to make sense out of the, the Islamic texts and the, the legal texts in order to better our understandings and our interpretations of it that are foregrounded in Islamic ethics as well as like feminist pr. And I think that's also something to, to kind of mention. It's not just thematically, but also methodologically. It is a, a huge contribution.
Speaker 1 00:07:42 Exactly. I think it's very important, as Michaela touched on, is that we're centering, or the book is centering women's experiences and lived realities as a lens to actually read the sacred texts and interpret them. And especially since historically women are marginalized, especially when it comes to, um, studying Islam, the book, the Quran, anything related to Sharia, what it means. And I think that's huge. Women are taught to avoid these things and to rely on jus interpretations. And as such, we see even in the book that something super important is that these jut are humans in the end, this is their interpretations based on what they've accumulated in knowledge and the cultural they were living through. So it's not divine in itself. And I think that's something super important because we used to think or were brought up to think that, oh, you cannot question these things, you take them as they are. Yes,
Speaker 2 00:08:39 Correct. You're, you're, I read like that point ine that you're making because I think the book makes this, um, clear distinction. And I think MUA has a project between Fe and between Shaya. So what's fe as the interpretation that is what's kind of shaped by the sixth century Islamic, um, um, jurists who were mostly men and then who were interpreting that the text through that lens, which is, um, which is, uh, masculinity and masculinist in a sense. Um, and that privileged a certain kind of, um, view and perspective that then became hegemonic and interpreting, interpreting like Islamic orthodoxy. And that vastly ignores the experiences and like the lives of women. Um, and I think it's, this is also where, for example, things like, um, um, um, feminism and feminist interpretations of that text allow us to see this construct constructiveness of, of it. And I think that's, uh, something valuable to me as where you position yourself vis-a-vis the text is important to what comes out of it. And this is standpoint theory, two words in a sense that has been kind of predominantly in in feminist understandings.
Speaker 1 00:09:40 What would your critiques be if you have any or had any?
Speaker 2 00:09:45 Yeah, so I think first I, I would like to to reiterate that I think this is an important project and this is something that should be grounded, um, and should be kind of celebrated in many ways. And of course, as any other text or as any other kind of effort there, there are some, some shortcomings that we can highlight. And I think one of the, the ones that was major to me in a sense was the understanding of, of texts or of Quran and Sharia and Sierra as, as the determinants of what Islamic or Muslim family life would look like. So I think, for example, more ethnographic approaches would show us that it's actually not as straightforward as it is. So it's not just exactly a change in laws or a change in policy would necessarily translate to the way that people live and practice, um, um, family.
Speaker 2 00:10:29 And I think there's a huge diversity in the way that people live and practice family in the Muslim world, or whatever you wanna call it, Muslim majority. So society is, but we can gain some, you know, anthropological insight from like, there are studies that showcasing how, um, um, women navigate within these constraints, um, that these legal constraints that are, um, highlighted by the Mosela project, um, in ways that, um, also still, um, um, important to, to kind of mention, but it's not solely just the law that matters, there's also the practice of the law, um, that we should kind of be attuned to. And I think I was really struck, I think in the episode one, in the, in the, um, in the podcast in the way that, um, uh, Dr. Mulkey said, oh, this is the first step of the project and there is another step, which is the ethnographic part to see how family is lived.
Speaker 2 00:11:14 And I think that's really important to me. I mean, coming from my perspective, um, I'm really interested in these kind of rich, ethnographic facts where, um, we see how people practice and navigate and maneuver. And a second critique, I have multiple, but a second one that I would say, and I would leave the, the word for my colleagues is the way that we would do a little bit more better if we understand the experiences of so-called Muslim women in a more nuanced way by looking at other factors. I mean, Muslim women are not the same everywhere. Like we can't just say there is one typical Muslim woman, um, um, that, you know, will have this steps here, and then she's gonna become enlightened and be able to advocate for herself. I mean, there are so many axes of oppression that intersect with gender. There's race, there's class, um, and I, and I wish there was a little bit more, um, attunement to these, um, um, to these, um, axi of oppression.
Speaker 2 00:12:01 I think there is particularly one chapter that I really appreciated it's attunement to class when, um, they were talking about to revisit the marriage of, of Prophet Mohammed, the, uh, solo and the, and, and, and kja as as, as a way to understand, um, these dynamics through class structure and class, um, struggle. And I think if we do a little bit more to understand, you know, blackness, to understand race, to understand, um, um, class within the context of Muslim societies, especially within like, um, um, the, the, the particular moment, the political moment we're living in right now, we would have a richer and more nuanced understanding of these experiences that go beyond just an interpretation of a text that can be, you know, feminist, because that can mean multiple things to multiple people across, you know, the spectrum. So I think it's, it's important also consider that, um, that as well. But I think this is a, the first step in, in, in a larger kind of discussion that might engulf all of these kind of aspects.
Speaker 3 00:12:53 Um, I agree with Hatin once again. Um, I think, um, in the first step, in the first podcast that she mentions that they will do research, which is very exciting. Um, and my country's one of those countries, and I would love to, I would love to read that research. I had the chance to work on, um, a project with one of our professors where I was looking at marriage and divorce laws and how marriage would look like for somebody marrying internationally and like how you're kind of stuck between these two, um, laws and which one would be upheld and which one will not be upheld, and how that has to do with your gender and how that has to do with your religion. And so I think definitely this book is very, very interesting. Um, but this is definitely the first step and we need to like, do research in very specific cases to see how different outcomes come out of like these intersections between your nationality race and, um, what court you use, like civil court or Islamic court, um, more. I was also thinking about how, uh, as Hadim said, Muslims are not the same everywhere. So I was thinking of different, um, sects again, that how they're different sect and they follow different, uh, interpretations and different understandings. So definitely like, um, we, we can take this book as a basis to think more, but we need to also look at people coming from different, uh, backgrounds in different SEC to see how they're interpreting the same thing.
Speaker 4 00:14:24 Uh, I agree with them and uh, yes, like the book was really centered on the Islamic part, but I think like to achieve egalitarian marriage, uh, we also have to look at the political system and the economic system, which will not, I think render possible the marriage to be equal just by change the, by changing the religious interpretation. And I think the change has to be more deep and there is political pressure, there is economic pressure who will kind of, um, renew and we enhance these gendered roles and expectations. So yeah, as my colleagues were saying, I think it's the first step of, uh, biggest, uh, project. I
Speaker 1 00:15:04 Agree with you guys even touching on your points when we're talking about how it's not only the legal system we should be looking at, and not only laws, it's also lift practices and norms. Because for example, I was thinking about marriage, how legally you're supposed to write, you know, your conditions in a marriage contract. But oftentimes I've heard, and I've seen a lot of people because of culturally what its portrays, it is found upon in a way because they would say, oh, why do you wanna start off your marriage this way? And you, you're making conditions even though it is a woman's right to write these things down.
Speaker 3 00:15:42 And even if, uh, certain conditions are written into the contract, you're able succeed in doing that. Then in practice, are those ever fulfilled or not? Uh, for example, if we just take the example of Maha, like you can write millions of Maha, but if it's never presented, um, because of norms and because of like, what would people say, then we have to start questioning like the validity of the marriage, but then that conversation is never had, right? You can educate policymakers and lawmakers and you can educate many people who are involved in certain processes that are part of the structure. But then does that structure actually translate to reality, or no, that's definitely important to do research on that.
Speaker 2 00:16:27 I just wanna build on that point to suggest that also at the level of policy change or legal change, I think it's important for sure, but I think there are also ways in which people have used these laws to create all sort of alternative ways to live in, in, in Muslim communities or, or Muslim majority countries, um, that are necessarily built within like a certain elitist form of how do you fight oppression? Because like if you're particular certain class through the way you, you, you fight oppression is through laws and through going to the state because you have that privileged access to the state. But when you don't have that privileged access to the state, then you have to find all sort of ways, um, to actually configure, um, how, how, how are you gonna get justice or whatever you want, you, you're trying to get out of it.
Speaker 2 00:17:13 And there is actually some scholarship or anthropological scholarship highlighting how, for example, in Egypt, women use these kind of contracts as patriarchal as we might think of them right now, to actually navigate and actually kind of, sort of negotiate better, uh, ways of living in within these constraints that they live on compared to other women who are more likely in a part of the elite class that see the state as, you know, um, um, as, as, as, as where they wanna get justice from. So I think it's this idea of justice is really based on where your social position is and what are your capacities and what are your privileges, et cetera, that we might really wanna think it more contextually and locally about what it means to seek justice or what it means to actually have justice. Does that mean in this context seeking laws?
Speaker 2 00:17:56 Does this mean actually changing, I don't know, working conditions or labor conditions? Does it mean actually changing, um, some other configurations of power? So I think it's really interesting to be attuned to these, um, um, issues rather than saying, you know, we need like a, a blanket legal change, um, and then we will hope that after this legal change, like after X or y or Z amount of years, then you're gonna see a more adjust and more, um, equal marriage in, in Muslim societies. I think that's, that's a fantasy that I would like to hold up into, but un unfortunately that's not the reality of many people. Um, so I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's good to kind of critically question that as well.
Speaker 1 00:18:29 Um, ham, go ahead. Uh, what other critiques would you like to pose? Let's bounce off that. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:18:34 Sure. Uh, I think I will wanna hone in maybe back, other people can also jump in maybe, um, on the question of, for example, race, which I find really interesting. Um, so when a chapter on the Islamic legal theory in ethics, um, by, um, Dr. Veda, I think, um, as well as her discussion with, with, with Dr. Malki, um, I think it's really interesting to see how she sort of, um, really kind of pointedly says that, uh, these earlier or quote unquote traditional misunderstanding of marriage in Islamic theology or an Islamic orthodoxy and legal theory are based on a slavery model, right? So it's, it's based on this value exchange that you're, you know, um, buying, you know, like a, technically it's a man buying a woman for, you know, sexual pleasure, for, for reproduction, for et cetera, et cetera. And this is what it is based on as, as, as her analysis and critique kind of forming these shows.
Speaker 2 00:19:22 But I think we need to put it to push it a little step further and say, what, what does it mean to actually reform family laws with something that is entangled with slavery? So how, how can we actually make a distinction between, you know, not fighting for anti-blackness and for slavery in the Muslim and Arab world, and also fighting for Islamic justice within this family, um, um, unit. So these are two things that are enmeshed with each other, and we cannot operate on one without the other and the other without one. So it's kind of goes with the cliche, like an oppression of a certain group is an oppression of all groups. So we need to to, to ground it in more an intersectional understanding of, of, of, of, of position. So to only fight for certain issues selectively, um, might not be really, um, um, um, might not really be the, the best strategy, especially here when we see like a huge entanglement in slavery and entanglement, um, in, in the region. Um, so I think that's something that I was thinking maybe it could have been kind of, you know, uh, um, mentioned or pushed we could push forward, um, a little bit, um, um, um, a little bit more. And I don't know what other people, um, maybe think about this,
Speaker 4 00:20:24 Uh, when they speak also about the reforms of their personal status law and all these processes. I was also thinking that it's calling on the state to have this woman, but we know that the state is not neutral. We know that, uh, the state is matches is, I mean, it's classed and so I don't really know if it's the, the best solution to kind of better the situation of the woman. And as we were talking about, there is I think a lack of research on the woman underground also to know how they resist, uh, these structures and use this, uh, uses it, it for their own benefits. And at the end it could be also counter predictive to, to enhance these legal changes. Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:21:06 I agree. Um, hat's example reminded me of a community in Pakistan where families actually seek out, uh, marriages for their daughters with men who are willing to pay large some of money, and then they decide the contract. And it might seem like even to me, in the beginning I thought, oh my God, this is horrible. But then the more that I learned about it from a person up close, I realized that they're actually using this to their benefit because their community was so underdeveloped and they decided to use this marriage to kind of make the lives of their daughters better and then make their own lives better. So they use the money for the benefit of the remaining daughters. And then the daughter who gets married, she has so many clauses in the, in the law and they have contacts with lawyers and everything, and they have set it up in a way where she has to come home after a certain amount of month, and she has to be paid a certain, uh, pocket money and she has to have help and where she would live and all of this, like, which is something that, um, is like usually non-existent in marriages where we would think that, oh, well, you know, this is like an arranged marriage, or this is like something that you are, uh, marrying like intentionally and this marriage might have been looked at as like she's been sold, but this woman is definitely like, you know, maneuvering through the system trying to make something happen because of her status, because of where she comes from, because of her background.
Speaker 1 00:22:33 Again, yes, context matters, especially in these matters. And as Ham says, it's a way to navigate what you're currently working through. You cannot rely on the state because sometimes, for example, in the case of Lebanon, the state, instead of being in charge of providing protection, safety for these women ends up exploiting them, oppressing them even more, even though they are supposedly in charge of their safety. So for example, we still have a lot of laws in the region that we're still working towards, um, removing, canceling out, such as, you know, the laws that exonerate rapists by marrying their victims. It's still an ongoing struggle in, uh, ongoing struggle in a lot of countries, uh, in Lebanon they removed the main 1 5 22, but there's still articles attached to it that still allow it to function as if removing it did nothing. So it's still a continuous struggle. And as you said, the state is not always the go-to. Why are we always relying on the state? I
Speaker 2 00:23:33 Think what you said me is quite, quite really interesting for me, as, as a lot of kind of feminist conversations have been about what do we do when we, when we don't seek the state or where, where do, when do we seek the state and when we do not seek the state. But I think it's also, I, I love the conversation we're having, and I think maybe we should also ground it like we sh this is a critique that I'm really invested in, but I think we should also ground it within this idea that Muah and the book are actually working to reform. So they're not really working to kind of overthrow this family structure or overthrow these kind of structures. So in a, the most possible way we can do this and mainstream it, quote unquote, is through reform. And I think that's a tactic and a strategy that we should honor, um, and, and, and celebrate, to be honest.
Speaker 2 00:24:16 But I think it's, it's, it's also limited, right? Like it, what we are working with is, is limited. We're not saying here, oh, like the, the family or this family formation is an a violent, oppressive kind of configuration, and let's sit together and imagine other ways of being in the world. But what we're trying to say is, you know, within the next couple of years, this is how it has been and what can we do to reconfigure it a little bit so it's better. Um, um, but I think what I'm trying to ask us is it's better for who, and it's better for what purposes, and I think this is what kind of be grounded in these experiences of class, race, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, but I think that the point is we're still working within this larger configuration of the state and the family, because that's, that's what we have for now at least with, with
Speaker 1 00:24:55 This. And I think it's important, as you said, to iterate that no one is free until everyone is free. Um, it's very important to be always intersectional in our approaches. Um, the levels and accesses of oppression, they all matter. And circling back to the concept of hierarchy, especially given the situation of Muslim marriage and what it's portrayed or seen as this hierarchy, right? And one of the chapters as we guys, as we've touched upon was how prophet Mohammed and Kja, um, their marriage was the example we're trying to seek, right? To amplify, to foster and our own Muslim marriages and how they touch upon a very important concept, especially nowadays, this masculinist analysis they employ and how we're supposed to seek out this feminist definition of what masculinity means and what it should, um, seek towards. And I think that's super important because we see a lot of times these days this sort of toxic masculinity, um, what gets emphasized and what does not, what is seen as quote unquote weak and what is seen as strong and powerful. What did you guys think?
Speaker 2 00:26:14 I can jump in. Um, uh, ms that was my favorite chapter, um, of the book. Um, I, I really, really enjoyed it and I enjoyed it because of many levels. Um, the first one is of the method that they're employing in that chapter. So, um, they're employing this method called the History of the President Fuka, which is trying to understand history not as this, you know, these things that we write in books and these journeys and things like that, right? It's, it's something that helps us read our present and helps us navigate our present. And they're bringing this example of, um, the marriage between, um, uh, prophet Mohammed, uh, peace upon him and, and, and k which is, we really think of as an ideal as something we all cherish, but we really never dig into this example of what actually it tells us. And I think it's really smart the way that they're bringing that example and put it, putting it in the nation state context in Muslim majority countries now.
Speaker 2 00:27:04 And we see how actually that marriage defies every single thing that it exists that claims to be a part of Shaya, right? So Ana was, was, was older than the, than the, the profits. She was more financially, um, um, um, unless she was the employer of the profits, she was, um, seeking her in multiple uh, ways. He was also showing vulnerability. So we see through these examples how in any like nation state you picked today in, in the era where Muslim world, this would not be possible. I mean, just the context of Morocco, this, this, this would be like, oh my god. Like no, like the, the man needs to provide. And like, no, there should be like a, you know, a class differentiation. There should be a hierarchy in that marriage. When this example tells us actually, like, let's, like, let's hold on for a sec.
Speaker 2 00:27:44 It hasn't been all the time this way. Let's see this example as a pedagogical way to understand what is wrong with the systems today and what is wrong with our struggle today. And I think that was really eyeopening because the figure of the prophet Muhammad as someone who embodies actually an anti hegemonic masculinity that we think of right now, right? Showing vulnerability, showing emotions, relying on, on, on, on a female partner, all of these things now it's like, oh my God, no, you cannot do this. This is not what a real man should be, right? So I think we, we, we have an example of healthy masculinity that we never actually invoke because the interpretation of text has been masculinist in its way, right? And I think what's also interesting about this chapter is that they're also tracking how modernity as like a western project has impacted this understanding, right?
Speaker 2 00:28:28 It hasn't been that we also always understood men to be the provider and women to be at home. This is a very bourgeois model that emerges from a certain western conception that has been impacted through colonialism, through cultural imperialism that we have to really ground. So I think taking this example and seeing how powerful it is to show us the conditions of today, how they actually are not actually, uh, uh, uh, mirroring the Islamic tradition or the Islamic way of thinking back then is, is actually really mind blowing for me. I was really, really happy with that chapter and it, it, it's, it was so grounded in that, that experience that I was like, oh, this is like something we, we should, you know, rethink about right? This figure that we have to think about in, in, in modern days. And I think that's the power of of, of that chapter, at least for me. I mean,
Speaker 3 00:29:10 Um, I agree, I I I really enjoyed that example. I like, I liked how, and I think even in their podcast they were talking about it, um, but like how they humanized the prophet, like how they showed him as somebody who was vulnerable, who could make mistakes, and, um, again, like the dynamic of their relationship, how when he received their relation, and <inaudible> was the one who was the smarter person at that time, who in that moment, like who was trying to guide him through it. And he's supposed to be the prophet, but he wouldn't have been able to like, how to discuss how he wouldn't have been able to accept all of that if it wasn't for her helping her out. I, I definitely love that example. It was making me think of other, um, marriages of the prophet as well. There's other marriages that I've read about, and I found those interesting as well. There was one in particular where Ms. Alama, uh, was proposed to by the prophet because he promised her ex-husband who had passed away that he would take care of her, and she refused to marry him. So she kind of rejected him and he had to pursue her until she said yes. But I never heard about it until when I was researching myself.
Speaker 4 00:30:19 And I think this example was also telling us a lot about, um, narratives and, uh, knowledge production and how certain facts are, uh, kind of erased or at least there is a volunt to erase them and just to keep some parts to, uh, reinforce the power of those who already have power basically, and to reinforce the statue quo. And as Hatim was saying, these masculinist interpretations, um, of the text and the facts. So I find it very interesting to see this Yeah, marginalization of all, which doesn't, uh, support the humanic narrative
Speaker 1 00:30:52 Like you're saying. Michaela, I think one of the points, the major points, unfortunately, but it's true that the book is pushing for and showcasing, is that indeed women are not to be seen as these inferior subjects. They are equal to men. They are equal subjects to be discussed, to be taken their advice, like Prophet Mohammad Salam did, they're active agents. And I love seeing that in the book that these women are active agents in the process of knowledge production and dissemination, and they're taking what's rightfully theirs their seat at the quote unquote table that should already be theirs.
Speaker 2 00:31:29 I, I really, I I I like what you're, you're saying Malina, I think it's the foundations of the book. I think if you read the first, uh, the first chapter, particularly, it's this idea that oncologically women and men are the same, right? Like there, there's some sort of equality within the, the interpretation of Islam that it has been skewed. Um, and I can really see this from, I went through, uh, through like, uh, traditional, if you wanna quote it, quote unquote traditional, um, public education in Morocco, right? And there's, when you take public education in Morocco, there's a section called islamia or Islamic Education. And it's so interesting for me to see how this book is actually altering all of these narratives that I ha that I have seen in my curriculum, right? Um, in, in, in Moroccan national schools. Even this idea of, you know, how the prophet, uh, piece be upon him was, was acting and what that means and what are certain erasers that I would call s selecting erasers.
Speaker 2 00:32:19 Like what you want to take out, you take out what you wanna put in, you put in the, this way of constructing history and constructing narrative really tells us a lot about actually how this inequality is also based in the way that we have been taught and the way that we, the ways that we have been socialized. And if we take this book seriously, then it asks us as an invitation to revisit these concepts, to question these concepts and to see what actually, um, um, um, can be kind of altered in our perception in order to achieve that egalitarian or, um, view or what I think they called in the chapter something like, at least for men as like feminist masculinity. I think that's, that's the word. They kind of, they kind of used for it. So I think it's, it's really important as a revisionist kind of aspect, as a point of reflection, um, on these issues, um, um, of equality and, and egalitarian ethics.
Speaker 3 00:33:04 I just wanted to say that, um, I believe it's the chapter by Dr. Nereda, uh, where she talks about spirituality. The thing that I loved about that chapter was as we're talking about egalitarianism and like equality, I felt like how she takes the concept of spirituality, um, and talks about marriage in that sense. For me, it really shows the, the basis of like equality in the marriage, how both of them help each other in their spirituality to reach a higher self or to have a better connection with God, and for them to be on equal plane, to have equal influence over each other. Like that chapter for me sets up like this idea very well.
Speaker 1 00:33:43 I think it's very important to actually see discussions of spirituality, because we talk about religion, right? The importance of religion in our lives, but it's always seen as like these sets of, um, practices, rituals that you do. And it sort of takes away that spirituality, you know, that mysticism attached to religion and your connection to God and what that means to you and to your partner and how, you know, a marriage is ultimately what we hope for is this partnership where you're actually growing together, you're getting closer to God, as you said, sundo, it's something very special. And, you know, spiritual.
Speaker 2 00:34:18 Yes, ma Shirley, I completely agree. I particularly see this in the way that I think in one of the parts of the podcast, I believe, um, episode five, uh, when they talk about the, the movements of MUA as a movement, not necessarily of what they call Islamic feminism or rather Muslim feminism. And I think this comes from this distinction between, you know, religion and spirituality. It's because they're saying that within the movement of, of sala, there are actually Muslim feminists who are secular who don't see that the, the religion should intersect with the state. There are Muslim feminists who are Islamic and, and in the Islamic, you know, political kind of, um, um, ideology. And there are just variety of people who see, you know, the way that Islam should be lived differently, right? But what unites them is this kind of theological or ontological kind of, um, commitment to equality within the spirit and spirituality, right?
Speaker 2 00:35:02 It's not necessarily that they see, it's not necessarily that they see, you know, this, uh, spirituality being kind of officialized by the state. It's not like the state creates a mosque and the state creates this. And then, you know, we agree on these kind of rituals and practices and what should be in the law as that's the religion, but rather the way we connect with the divine within the commitment that there is egal equality. If you believe that, you know, the state and the, the, and, and the religion should be separate, or if you believe that the state and the, and the religion should be mashed together, doesn't really matter what matters. Do you believe in these ethics and this ontology of like, equality between men and women? And that's what unit unites this mo project. And I think that's what's powerful. It's bringing together these people that usually don't talk together, but through this kind of project, as, you know, with solidarity kind of, or, or, or, or, um, or like an, a larger kind of commitment.
Speaker 1 00:35:47 After touching on this point, what do you think needs to be done to mainstream these teachings of these books and these lessons to be able to actually enact tangible change, whether we say in the societal, the cultural, the legal realm, especially with the new generation, the youth that we are. I think for example, the podcast is definitely one way to do it. Um, and I really enjoyed, as you guys said, that mu really put in that work of like the reading guides, breaking it down, making it accessible. I think accessibility is very important.
Speaker 2 00:36:19 I think this is, uh, it's, as I said, like my, my fascination was the infrastructure that was built around this, this book project. And I think that's really powerful. Um, and I think we can do a couple of things to reach out to people, including, you know, TikTok, things like that can make, you know, small, um, information digestible to people. But I, what I wanna really kind of also hone on is that this idea that, you know, knowledge and education alone will kind of like initiate straight change. And maybe this is, I'm a more critical and skeptical with this perspective, but I think it's not enough to only know that, okay, we have changed, you know, our interpretation of the text and now this is how we know it. It's, it's actually understanding how these interpretations or, or social life in, in Muslim communities and Muslim marriages are embedded within, you know, capitalist racial, um, class gendered, sexualized kind of, um, um, um, forms that actually allow this to, to, to advance if just we all know, but then we don't have the power to make change through, I dunno, capital through, you know, political power, political will, then we won't actually advance the certain tangible material change and it would remain at the ideational level.
Speaker 2 00:37:24 So we need to do work more to bridge the ideational and the material to make sure that there is actually material change by looking at actually what, what hinders this idea from becoming a reality. And it could be class, it could be a race, it could be combination of both, it can be gender, et cetera. So we have to really be attuned to these more structures that have more power. It's not just by taking away this hierarchical understanding ideologically, oh, now I understand the text with less hierarchy, however that might be understood. It's actually what the hierarchy is in real world, right? It's not that someone is in power to do something, but they don't have the power to do it because they have someone who's, who's in a higher class, who's, you know, employing them if they say something, you know, they'll have to, um, lose their jobs and their material conditions would change. So we have to really, really ground our analysis within material stuff. Um, not that, not being said that education is not important, I just said that it should come with some form of, you know, material change.
Speaker 1 00:38:13 No, I completely agree. I think that's definitely one of the foundations if we want to truly enact change, for sure.
Speaker 3 00:38:18 I agree. We've had them, I was thinking the same thing when I was reading the book, like from, as we said about, talked about accessibility, like who is it accessible to? So first we have to think of the language of the book and where is it available and like how people can access it. Then after the podcast, definitely it's like a very good, good idea. The guides are a good idea and we can also like start to like, try to do a campaign online, which can also be useful to reach, uh, people of different age groups. But again, this comes to class who has access to this, right? So then as had said, it has to go back to also the material change and not just change in this level. Um, other than that, um, for me, like, I like to think about education like from the bottom. So I think like if slowly, slowly this can permeate into like story books of kids, like it has to flow into these things where it's normal for you to read about, about women, women in Islam, about perspectives by women and not just like, um, things written by men and things written by men scholars. So for me, like these things are also very important. Uh, cuz from a young age you set up certain schemas and that follow through with you in your life.
Speaker 4 00:39:29 It's a change in the, the material conditions in the materiality and how, I mean, if the law is changed, but the judge is still a matches guy, uh, I don't think it, it'll change anything for this woman. And also to have an understanding of about how this woman live, the reality, because like doing, like the change can counterproductive to also understand how they live with that and how they navigate, how it's a strength, but a weakness also. And so I think it's also the danger to come, uh, as a scholar or I don't know, and to impose or to, to suggest some change. Uh, while I mean on the ground, things are happening. So also how do we know what is happening, how this woman navigate and all the diversity, uh, among Muslim women, if we call them Muslim women. So I think it's also important,
Speaker 1 00:40:22 I think Sundus touched upon a very important point, which is cultural production, right? The things that we're consuming on a daily basis ever since growing up, what continues to be, like Hatham said in schools, the curriculums, um, the story books, the media we're consuming on a daily basis. And also, I guess very importantly, this continuous conversation we're having regarding how we can tie scholarship and activism, right? How we can take theory into practice, because that's something we're constantly striving for, especially in our classes. For example, I remember always asking our professors, okay, this is great in theory, now tell me what can we do to actually imply this or employ this in practice? It's a continuous struggle. This this translation of scholarship from activism because you don't want to be, as ham said, you know, you have this knowledge, you're in these high towers. And then, okay, what are you doing to sort of enact change?
Speaker 2 00:41:19 And I think we also have to be aware of this binary of like scholarship and activism as something that is actually very much based on the Western academy. This is something like that how the, the west and these institutions have been kind of, you know, constructed that there is someone who is writing on a chair, and then there's people who are struggling for, for, for labor rights. When actually I see this as more, a little bit more muddied in the, in at least in the context of Morocco. Like for example, um, anthropologists and sociologists and Moroccan public universities write, like, write like books for everyday consumption. They don't write like academic books with university press, but rather they write books that people need to write. You know, you go to a library and you find a book that is, you know, for mass consumption if you wanna make that distinction.
Speaker 2 00:41:59 Whereas, for example, if you go to the US or you go to, you know, the European countries, you find like these more academic books, and then you find this people who are like, you know, for everyday consumption books. So I think we need to be very wary about this, you know, idea and also comes from this, you know, at least this idea that, you know, the scholar has, you know, money is paid by the university, they don't have contacts with people, which is really not the case. For example, in Moroccan universities. People are struggling, you know, in in, in public universities to make and meets. And then they are actually a part of the labor unions. They are a part of like other, you know, struggles. So it's, it's inevitable that they're gonna speak from inside the organizing or from inside the struggle, right? So I think we need to be more careful, and I think this is something I appreciated actually about the book, that there were people who were actually engaged in activism that were writing these chapters. And I thought that was something, you know, to honestly cherish and, and to look forward to.
Speaker 3 00:42:47 I was just gonna say that, um, I've personally used some of Ava's reports whenever I couldn't find information, there was a chance Ava had a report in something including like legal documents and texts that I couldn't find of my own country using the help of my lawyer friend, and we couldn't find these documents. And then Ava had like a long report on it. So definitely to make it more accessible, it would be good. Do
Speaker 1 00:43:13 You guys wanna add anything?
Speaker 3 00:43:15 I would just like to say that I loved reading so much coming from a woman. Um, I really enjoyed it. I've personally dealt with like minor issues in life that have to do with like, how do I deal with this religiously? And there's just stuff written by men who don't actually know like what I'm going through, who will not experience what I'm going through, and they'll write up like two to three lines and that's it. Like, you have to follow this end of story and then there is no say on it from women. So something so small like affects my life and these are like larger issues. Um, so I personally really, really enjoyed reading from women.
Speaker 2 00:43:54 Yeah, I think one like last thing I would, I would wanna say is, um, I really kind of thank people who have contributed to this project, uh, for having such a thing out in the world. I think it's really great and important, um, um, for, for all of us to, to kind of, um, contend with. But I wanna also say that when we see you and we take all of, and so in all of this information, we also need to understand the way that we are enmeshed in these systems, right? Like the way that, you know, I come to this work and I understand myself as also a part of like these larger systems and how I can take away from, from, from this books ways in in which I can implement in my life, but also to not be afraid of change. You know, a lot of people still haul and hang on to these ideas with what the book called like traditional ideas of, of, of, of Islamic family because a lot of people are scared of, of uncertainty.
Speaker 2 00:44:44 You want like a figure to tell you exactly how it is Islam be. And I think our generation at least is trying to embrace this idea of uncertainty in ways that I don't think we have seen, um, um, before. And I hope that people take on this project and understand their own position and start to also question, you know, how capitalism, how racial structures, how racial capitalism actually also impact the ways that we live our lives and try to go beyond the deconstruction, you know, of like, oh, there's like a man and there's a woman there. These kind of rigid categories to try to understand and be more flexible and open, um, um, um, to a way that is like still valued, you know, eg and equality and justice, whatever that looks for pe people on different sides of the spectrum. So I, I hope people take, take it as a generative point, as a way to look forward, to think, to question, to, to, to navigate, um, um, what they've been programmed.
Speaker 2 00:45:32 And one last example I will say is one, one of my friends always tells me is that we're like, if you think about us, it's like in a capital way. It's like we're all brandy. The world is like this pre-made prefigured iPhone when, you know, when you buy like an iPhone, you have these apps that have been installed, you know, by the industry or like by like whatever the store that you, you you come to and after certain years you start saying, oh, this app is actually not useful for me. I'm gonna delete it. Oh, this app is something I need to reconfigure. Oh, maybe I will change, you know, the theme of the, of, of, of the, of, of this. Maybe this is actually useless. So I think it's, it's in the questioning these assumptions that we've been kind of built into that we can actually see this as a generative point of work. And, and hopefully I have all better iPhones in the most capitalist way possible. But, uh, but that's just my take on it.
Speaker 1 00:46:17 No, that's true because I feel like sometimes it's sort of seen as frowned upon to question, no, I want us to constantly question, not take things as they are. No, why is this as it is? What does this mean? How does this impact my life? Because as we all know, everything is political. Our lives are continuously political. You cannot disengage from that fact. The word feminists, for example, in itself, a lot of people tend to shy away like, yes, I believe in equal rights, but I'm not a feminist. You know, don't lump me into that category. And as soon as you say that word, people, you know, they, they they get this scare. Like, no. And you're constantly having to prove like, oh no, being a feminist is a good thing. I promise. Like we all identify as feminists.
Speaker 2 00:46:58 You are totally right. Um, mej, and I think, I promise it's the last thing I'm gonna say. Certainly there's this, uh, report that was put by, um, Muslim, ju all of, most of them are men. Um, it's about, um, I think it's called something like navigating differences, clarifying sexual and gender ethics in Islam. And I really invite people, and this would really harmful for gender and sexuality, generally studies because it's still a very mainstream orthodox interpretation of Islam. And I hope this book gives us the tools and the mythological tools to read that and be critical of it because maybe we think, oh, this is just an ideology, this is a way of interpreting, but we cannot forget that this has real implication of people's lives. It has real implications of how people live their lives. And I hope that people take away not only questioning the themes, but also the method as a method of inquiry.
Speaker 2 00:47:44 And this really speaks back to what you said, it's about always questioning what is given to us and what is said to us. And engaging in this kind of critical, um, mode of, of, of thinking, which is, you know, can be very frustrating sometimes you just wanna, you know, have an ice cream and chill and be like, the world will be better. But sometimes it's, it's useful to, to have these, um, um, to have these kind of tools. And sometimes, you know, it's, it's time to chill and relax. But, but, but you have to, you know, deal and grapple with these things because power is in constant work and we have to always fight.
Speaker 1 00:48:13 I wanna thank you guys for today's discussion. It was lovely and very enriching.
Speaker 5 00:48:20 This
Speaker 6 00:48:20 Is women health.
