Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:03 Hello, and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast, women of the Middle East. This podcast relates the realities of Arab woman and their rich and diverse experiences. It's aims to present the multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East. My name is a Maki. I'm a feminist, scholar and educator.
Speaker 2 00:00:28 This is Women of the Middle East podcast.
Speaker 1 00:00:31 This is season four woman voices across genres where I will be speaking to women producing feminist content across different genres and outlets. These courageous voices delve into untapped areas such as women with disability, hybrid identities, intergenerational trauma, feminist narrative, and activism, and much, much more. I'm your host, Amal Al Malki, contributing to creating a new narrative about us by us.
Speaker 2 00:00:56 This is Women of the Middle East Podcast Cap.
Speaker 1 00:01:00 Hello and welcome to a Woman of the Middle East Podcasts. In this episode, I'm talking to Diana Moukalled, who is a renowned Lebanese journalist, feminist, and documentary producer and maker with almost 30 years of experience in the media industry. Diana is also one of the leading female war correspondent in the Arab world as her war coverage included Lebanon, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Yemen. Diana, lovely to have you.
Speaker 3 00:01:26 Thank you so much. I'm very pleased to be with you. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:01:30 And congratulations on your recent award, uh, the La Lauretta one, uh, Afra, uh, woman and News, editorial leadership Award of 20, uh, 22 for the Arab region. Tell me, what does this award mean to you?
Speaker 3 00:01:44 I was happy to receive the award. I mean, at the end, it's a recognition not only for me, for what women have been doing in, in the East and the region, uh, it's not an easy path for you to be a woman. Uh, it's more complicated if you wanna be a work respondent or a journalist or in a leading role, uh, in journalism. So this recognition is, is I'm, I'm happy with it. And I think, uh, lots of women deserve something like these awards. And in the region we have, uh, good talents. We have strong women trying to make change in journalism and all, all other fields. So I'm happy with, uh, to have
Speaker 1 00:02:23 It deserve. Uh, let's talk about women in media talking about how difficult it is for women. One of the many findings of my book, Arab Woman in Arab News, uh, that was published in 20, uh, 12, is the absence of women in hard news in in the Arab media. Why are women still absent or made absent in hard news in the media? Um, and, and not just in, in reporting the news, but also on being depicted in the news. What do you think?
Speaker 3 00:02:52 Well, when you look at the women presence in general, you will find that women are not that active in the public field as much as they should. They are half and sometimes more in the society, but restrictions that they are facing, whether, uh, whether social or, uh, laws or practices women are being discriminated against. And when a woman is not being treated equal within her core family, it's hard for a woman to be active and public and strong in the public field. So I think the core issue why we don't have enough or good women representation in several fields, including journalism, is the fact that women are struggling to achieve themselves. First, they have to struggle within their families, within their, uh, uh, studies within the law, within so many obstacles that are being faced with. And then we are asking why they are not visible enough, because they face lots of challenges their, their men counterparts don't face when it comes to journalism.
Speaker 3 00:04:01 It's a field where it is expected from a woman or a journalist in general, men or a woman to be active, to go on field, to go sometimes to change dangerous places, to take, uh, decisions that are tough sometimes. So you are in a very tough position, and this requires, uh, ability and freedom. I remember when I started that many young female journalists couldn't really travel to, uh, to cover war zones. First of all, their close, their, uh, close circles, their families wouldn't accept for them to travel. Uh, sometimes they have a family influence that wouldn't enable them to travel and do what they believe that they should do. That's why in the nineties, late in the 2000 and up, uh, we started seeing more, uh, uh, more women active in covering war war zones and in covering, uh, uh, hot stories in, in, in the field.
Speaker 3 00:05:01 And when you, when you look at the Arab revolutions at what started after Arab Revolution revolutions, we started seeing women more visibility. So to me, uh, we have an issue that we need to face, which is status laws, which is social, um, uh, social behavior against, uh, regarding women, which is discriminatory. And once you are discriminated against, you will be forced to face lots of obstacles to achieve yourself. Journalism. And the field of journalism is just one part of other, uh, misrepresented, uh, fields where women are not well, uh, active and present. So to me, journalism is a field that needs, uh, more women. And we have lots of active young journalists, female journalists. But if you look up in the hierarchy, in the top positions in editorial, uh, leadership, you still don't find, uh, lots of women active in that field. It's not because we lack the talents, it's because we still, uh, me, male dominated societies. That is a major obstacle facing women in general.
Speaker 1 00:06:15 Definitely, definitely. When I looked at women representation in traditional media in the Arab world, I found that there are two dichotomous pictures, right? There's, um, there women are underrepresented in, in news or overrepresented in, in what we call now, um, women's media. Uh, the programs fashioned for women's, uh, consumer ability. Uh, we talk about fashion, we talk about makeup, uh, as if we cannot be, um, uh, more than that. Right? What, what's your take on
Speaker 3 00:06:46 That? This is very true and unfortunate. At the same time, again, women have been cornered in being, uh, beautiful. And of course they have. I mean, it's up to them. I want to look good. It's up to me, but I don't want to be treated always as such. I remember when I graduated from the university, when I applied for my first job in 1991, I was very much taken by how I look on camera rather than what I should do with the camera, what kind of story I should be working on. Because it was incorporated within our culture and tradition. Women should be pretty, should. If you are, if you have a good look, then you can be on television. It's always associated back. If you want to be in the public, you have to be pretty, you have to look good. You have to take care of your look.
Speaker 3 00:07:35 I'm not saying that we shouldn't take care of how we look, but it's different. The interpretation is different with, with the consumerism, with everything that's around us. Women and young women have been pushed to be just pretty face. And unfortunately, if you look at the mainstream media in the Arab world, they cherish this. They enhance the looks over the content. Again, I'm not against having a good look. I'm just saying that, uh, it took a lot of attention on the expense of content, on the expense of real journalism. And that applies for men as well. You the same what you have spoken about, you can see among young male, uh, presenters or journalists. So it is affecting both, but it is affecting women more because women always in the society have been cornered as being the nice wife, the lovely daughter, the one who should be good looking and taking care of the others. So this, the same thing is being implemented also in journalism. And that's why we do see, see, see this phenomena affecting both men and women with the TikTok, with, uh, influencers on social media. And that is being used by, uh, by, uh, authorities sometimes to divert attention from the main problems that each society and each country face with being, uh, consumed by, uh, influence and looks and those, uh, uh, type of things. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:09:08 You know, it's really interesting how looks and age, uh, works against us. Let me share this with you. I finished my master's in the UK at a very young age, and then I applied for my PhD, um, in, at, at the age of 21. And I remember the first supervisor, and we're talking about the uk London. So the first supervisor who was actually pro often Arab, uh, origin, uh, looked at me and said, aren't you too young to work on your PhD? Why don't you go back home and get married? So I was young, okay, to venture into <laugh>, academia and PhD and research, but not young, to get married and have children. And age, age plays a huge role, whether you are too old to two to do something or you are too young to do something.
Speaker 3 00:09:54 Absolutely. Especially in, in this part of the world. I mean, I always get this when I, I'm, I'm active on social media. I, I try to express my ideas, my beliefs, uh, when I talk about topics related to current situation. And I always get, when I get criticized, not sometimes because of what I say, but lots of comments come to my age. Um, uh, you're old, you're ugly. Uh, you shouldn't be speaking because you are too old. And this is something that is being used against lots of of women in the public sphere. And I have to give an example that is dear to my heart. And, uh, it hurts a lot. Um, I don't know if you remember, uh, my different n who used to be a very famous, uh, presenter, who we met. We worked together in future television, and then she moved to Arabia in Dubai.
Speaker 3 00:10:49 And I remember very, very well, uh, she passed away a couple of years ago, heart attack. But before that, um, there was a direct attack against her Bec, but she was a very professional presenter and journalist. Yet she was faced with the age issue that she passed certain age. And there is, there are young, uh, female presenters much prettier than her, and she should be retir. She, she should retiree, whereas she was still in the height of her performance. I mean, if you look at, uh, in general, in, in the outside world, if you'll still see men and women who are, um, advanced in their age, but still present, uh, in, in the screen, this is unfortunate. It's still happening. We still don't believe that age is an experience, is knowledge is opening the way for young talents. We treat age as something negative, not as an experienced talent that we need to, to cherish and, uh, benefit from. It's not happening only in our region. I have to say. There's a presenter in bbc, uh, suing BBC because she was, she claims that she was not treated fairly in terms of salary at as a broadcast broadcaster.
Speaker 1 00:12:09 So
Speaker 3 00:12:09 It is there. But here in the region, because of our limitations within society, within discriminatory laws, we find it, uh, much bigger burden for us, on us as women and as, uh, women journalists,
Speaker 1 00:12:25 Definitely. And it feeds into this sexism and patriarchy because, um, I'm not, uh, in media. I'm an academic, uh, but you know, in one of the campaigns against me as a feminist, uh, I heard that, I heard, aren't you too old to be talking about women's rights and all that? And, and they tried to hit me age wise, all, although as an academic, um, and my forties, I would be more, uh, wiser, mature, right? Um, absolutely. But they do do shame you, um, in, in any way possible. Uh, it's very unfortunate goes back to, you know, the culture and, and the way they perceive an oppress woman. Let's talk about new media. So Diana, you are the co-founder of and managing editor of, uh, de Media, an independent media platform that addresses controversial issues under reported in the Arab region. You also host a podcast, uh, series on the Raj called Noon, which I, uh, watch and I love, uh, critical feminist conversations. Uh, is this an abandonment of traditional media? What caused the, the, this shift?
Speaker 3 00:13:30 It's frustration from traditional, you know, very well, that we live in a region that is troubled by, uh, so many revolutions and uprisings. Since 2011, there has been a wave of undress, uh, that caused lots of injustices. Uh, we've seen autocratic regime having larger grip upon mainstream media. So the, the space for independent voices, for progressive voices, for women voices, uh, have been limited or controlled by regimes and those who are in authority. We have experienced that across the region. I, I would like to speak about myself. Before the Arab Spring, before the Arab revolutions, my, uh, my, my motto within media, I worked in a mainstream media. I used to cover the stories I can cover, uh, properly and without any, uh, censorship, the stories that I feel that there will be a kind of limitations due to political reasons I, I try to avoid.
Speaker 3 00:14:35 But to me, after 2011 and after the Arab Revolution and after the so much blood and injustices, I felt it's about time to have a shift and have an independent place where I can cover all topics, whether, uh, social, political, um, re uh, issues related to, uh, LGBTQ community. Uh, so, uh, issues related to freedom of speech without any limitation or censorship. I dealt with several mainstream medias in terms of print articles or, uh, film productions, and I couldn't feel, uh, myself doing it again. That's why I started looking for a shift. And to be independent Victorian, you have to be financially independent. So, uh, that's why the shift was towards trying to have a, a, a platform. It's a small platform that was founded in 2017. We take funds from independent institutions that does not practice on us any editorial leverage.
Speaker 3 00:15:40 Our editorial line is independent, and we try to prove that through our coverage, it's true that we are, uh, we are progressive, we are, we want to push boundaries when it comes to women's right, when it comes to everybody's right in, in the region, uh, without compromising that. And this is why, uh, we look carefully at the source of our funding. And this is why we try to thrive, uh, by improving our, uh, business model to be able to sustain, uh, our funding and our, uh, financial independence to maintain our editorial independence. So this is, the shift has, uh, it is related also to, to me being a woman, a female journalist, uh, a person who is experiencing or witnessing and covering, lots of injustices happening around me affecting women, and lots of marginalized groups in, in the society within Lebanon are in the Arab world. So this is the shift towards, uh, uh, uh, independent media and, uh, uh, platforms that could use, uh, online, could use podcasts, could use social media as a mean of communication and broadcasts. Yeah, so this is the shift. It came from here. And we've seen after 2011, um, several independent media, independent voices, uh, trying to prove themselves. And I think this is very healthy and very much needed in our region.
Speaker 1 00:17:07 And we see how cyber feminism has, uh, also, uh, uh, emerged, uh, due to new media. Um, what, how do you see cyber feminism or feminist digital activism in the Arab world? Of course, there are, uh, well established feminism in the Arab world, um, prior to, you know, the, the digital revolution, but cyber feminism has taken off in areas, geographical and cultural and traditional areas that needed that space for them. What do you see, uh, cyber feminism achieving, and what, uh, challenges do they
Speaker 3 00:17:44 Face? Definitely, we're speaking about the world that is, um, uh, after Me Too movement. And we, in the Arab world, have been affected by the Me Too movement within our societies within, it has its own Arab, uh, interpretation of it. First of all, let me say, the world feminism itself, it's, uh, a new concept that is being used in the Arab world. I remember myself, 15 years ago, I would call myself as a woman activist or a woman journalist. I wouldn't label myself as a m. But now with experience, with time and with age, I do call myself a feminist because I have explanation for that. Feminism, it's a political movement. It's beyond just women's, right? It's political movement that calls for equality for everyone, all marginalized group, including women that does not compromise on certain issues, uh, that is being, uh, hidden or highlighted by other movements.
Speaker 3 00:18:46 So to me, feminism is something I believe in, and I'm proudly call myself a, a feminist with cyber feminism. I'm happy that you are using this term because yes, we've, we've been witnessing this, um, with the technological, uh, uh, you know, revolution. Everybody has the ability to have a voice with your phone, with your own platform. You can be influencer, you can be a feminist, uh, podcast, uh, uh, uh, podcaster. So I think this is enabling lots of independent voices to, uh, to express themselves. It has its counterpart, a counter attack, which always happen whenever you have a technological, uh, uh, revolution, which is the Antifa, uh, uh, attack, which is very strong. And we've, we've seen it with lots of, uh, uh, platforms. Uh, you see feminist voices criticizing, at attacking and mobilizing after crimes like the one we've seen like happened, and lots of these, uh, violent attacks against women just for saying no.
Speaker 3 00:19:57 So we see counter attacks, and we see women sometimes because, you know, feminism and misogyny is a way of thinking. It's not about gender. You can be a woman and you can be a misogynist, and you can be a man, and you can be a feminist. So it's a way of thinking, I'm not attacking a gender, I'm attacking a way of thinking. So I'm just giving the example of ne ash and what it created after this crime. We've seen feminist discussions asking for more, um, uh, accountability and more discussion about women's rights. And at the same time, we've seen people talking about how you look and talking about a crime of <unk> trying to justify the crime. I'm just giving this example as an exemplary of lots of other examples where you have this discussion, where does it end? Where does it stop? To me, it's an open discussion, and we need it.
Speaker 3 00:20:57 I know there are lots of limitations and attacks, but it's needed. We need this. We don't have it in our public space, why we are using social media, because public discussions is not open at that much. So that's why we find people using the, uh, social media pages, whether TikTok, Instagram, et cetera, and, uh, trying to have a discussion. Sometimes it's, it's, uh, toxic. Uh, we, we have seen platforms like Fuera, like others who are using, uh, diverted, uh, uh, slogans to attack feminism and openness. So it is, it's, it goes two way, but again, having discussion is key to be able to understand and talk, and try to divert those who have radical opinions towards, uh, progressive, uh, ideas.
Speaker 1 00:21:51 The lack of access to the public, uh, severe, um, uh, for some woman is, is more difficult than other women. Uh, so, uh, there were movements, uh, prior to Me Too movement and Saudi Arabia, for example, right? All of the campaigns were driving, um, uh, happened way before that. Uh, unfortunately, we saw how this has ended. Um, but again, if the, the culture, if the people, as you said, if the mindset is against women, um, uh, then this will, um, spell over the digital sphere as well. So we see the bullying, and we see the harassment.
Speaker 3 00:22:26 Uh, that takes me to the, to a point that is very important when you, uh, use entertainment, when you use, uh, public, uh, sphere, trying to consume people with issues, to divert them from the real causes. We have seen using, uh, in the Gulf, uh, region, whether Saudi Arabia and other countries trying to use entertainment and some social openness to divert attention from political, uh, issues, from real causes, from real activism, women issues, does not, you cannot separate women, uh, rights from, uh, democracy, from, uh, our rights to express ourselves from, from political activism. So to me, they are inseparable. So what we see now is a way to consi, to divert attention. Let's go and have fun, and those who, who ask for, uh, uh, uh, reforms go to prison or, uh, being killed. And that applies for so many countries. I'm not, I'm not talking about one country only. Yeah, unfortunately, the Arab region, the Arab world is still struggling when it comes to democracy. And women, unless we have a democratic, uh, regimes and democratic approach, we will struggle, uh, as women to achieve our, uh, rights. But it's a struggle that we are all, um, I personally am willing to go for. And I think it's, um, it's, we deserve better future. And this is why we, in the media believe that we need and departed forces, even if we only have small platforms. But it's, it's a battle worth
Speaker 1 00:24:09 Taking. Following up on what you said, uh, especially in our part in, in the Gulf region. So, um, in other regions, you have a robust civil society. You've got women organizations in our, in, in the Gulf, you rarely find that, except for a couple of countries here. Uh, so you would see state feminism, tokenism, a state feminism that polishes certain, uh, woman, uh, for the outside world to see and say, oh, wow, look at them. They're doing very well in terms of, uh, women's rights.
Speaker 3 00:24:37 Okay, that's true.
Speaker 1 00:24:39 Okay, let's talk about language. So you are creating a new content through your podcast, one that is relevant to women in the region, and using the language of, you know, the native language of, or the first language of, of these women, uh, define claims that the Arabic, uh, language cannot carry feminists, dialogues, and feminist content because it lacks the concepts and the equivalence and meanings. Uh, you know, like gender, for example. We don't have an equivalent for gender. Um, what's your take on that? This is very important. I, I'm, I'm, what you're creating should be taught in women's studies programs in the region.
Speaker 3 00:25:19 Thank you very much. Uh, definitely it was a strategic decision, uh, when we decided to launch <inaudible> or what we decided to launch the platform, uh, that we are addressing Arab speakers. We want to, to speak in Arabic. Arabic. We have a beautiful language. We have millions of Arab speakers who are not well served, the Arab content. And, and on the internet is, is minor compared to others in English, on other, other languages, we have, uh, a huge, um, we have hu we have millions of Arabs who are not well served in Arabic. So we believe that there is a space and there's a need. So that's why improving and developing, uh, what we believe in, in terms of journalism, writing the podcast, everything in Arabic is key to us, because you will find lots of, uh, intellectuals, feminists addressing Arab speak, but those who speak English to us, it's not, it's the other way around.
Speaker 3 00:26:19 I want my content, our content to reach those who are, uh, forgotten in the suburbs, uh, who can only have access to their phones and maybe, maybe, uh, have the chance to see one of our videos or one of our interviews and maybe read some of our articles within social media, uh, uh, sharings. We want to reach them in Arabic and with the financial crisis that many, uh, Arab countries are going through. So we want to address the misfortunes, and not only the privileged one ones we want to reach, also Arab's, uh, English speaking, uh, uh, categories. And we are trying to, uh, work on the infrastructure of our English website. But to us, it was strategic. We want to reach out to Arab speakers and who are not fortunate enough to speak second or third language. And also, we want to be part of the discussion in Arabic and have, uh, advanced vocabulary in Arabic progressive, uh, language, progressive approach in Arabic, not only in English, trying to arabe the language, trying to arabe the concept.
Speaker 3 00:27:30 And trust me, sometimes it's challenging because if you look at the vocabulary in Arabic, it's against you as a woman, using, we, we will refuse to use sometimes certain words. It's a data discussion in the newsroom, because certain words are really against you. We don't use the word honest. We refuse to use it. We use <unk>. And sometimes we have to go through this discussion with our journalists, both men and women. This word <unk> is full of, of meaning. It's against women. Sometimes I use Google Translate for, for quick. Uh, if you have an article, uh, and I want to use book translate and I edit it afterwards, sometimes we do that. And I look sometimes even at the translate, uh, the way that the Google language, uh, translation is being used, sometimes it's used word that shouldn't be, uh, used. It has lots of, uh, uh, discriminatory, uh, uh, inclination.
Speaker 3 00:28:31 So, uh, the, and unfortunately, um, it's not like other languages where you have laboratories, where you have scholars meeting and adding new words. You have the Oxford Dictionary, every word, every year, adding new worlds, uh, interpreting it from a feminist perspective, this kind of discussion is not visible, is not there in Arabic. So why we are using Arabic, because it's our language. We love it, and it's a rich language, and we believe that Arab audience deserve to have better, um, better, uh, uh, content in Arabic. So if we can help in some of that content, then, uh, we believe this is our mission.
Speaker 1 00:29:13 Um, uh, and it's a very, uh, noble mission, because I used to think this way too. Uh, but I am now, um, I believe now that Arabic is a wonderful language. It's the culture embedded in it, uh, because, you know, a word is a word, right? It's, it's what you make of the word. Um, so, um, I wouldn't accept any invitation for an interview in Arabic unless they present me as, you know, I'm a founding dean, okay? And they need to feminize it in Arabic, you know, sometimes the tv, the newspapers, it's like, this is unheard of. I'm unlike, then you won't have me. Uh, so if we have enough people feminizing the language and enough people scrutinizing the language, um, for those, as you said, the cultural, um, usage of, of those words that have been adopted for so many centuries now to be against women, whereas they started as neutral, even Kim, an is not a feminine thing. We have people like you, and I'm telling you, I'm, um, I, I love your podcast. I think what you're doing is amazing. Um, we
Speaker 3 00:30:24 Need thank you so much. I'm very happy to
Speaker 1 00:30:26 Meet that. And we need to work on
Speaker 3 00:30:29 You insist on using <unk> because I see lots of women using <unk> why, why, why we have to feminize it. Definitely. I agree with you.
Speaker 1 00:30:43 Yep. Okay. Deanna, let's speak about, um, Lebanese women. So Lebanese women benefit, um, from a very strong and robust, uh, civil society. But all but there are disadvantaged by multiple factors like lack of government, sectarianism, and other factors. Of course, during the October revolution, we witnessed women reclaiming public spaces, and at the front lines of the protest movements, fearlessly demanding, uh, a change in the political status quo. They use their platform to address the marginalization they have experienced for so long, yet, Lebanese women's rights remain stifled. What would you say are the biggest or the greatest obstacles still ahead of women's equitable position in the Lebanese society?
Speaker 3 00:31:31 Thank you so much. Yes, I'm, I was in the streets. And, uh, in the protest of 2019, I was very happy to see young woman being very visible and bold and chanting for their rights. And that was seen by the world actually at that time. Uh, it's true. We have active women in civil society and in society in general. The thing is, women in Lebanon are visible in the media and the public sphere, but they are totally discriminated against when it comes to close in Lebanon. Sectarianism is the main obstacle in politics and in women's rights. Why I'm saying that in Lebanon, we have 18 sex, and, uh, we have 15, uh, status law, uh, discriminated among, uh, sect sex in Lebanon. So this is really something, uh, a major obstacle, and it's being cherished by religious figures and by many politicians and leaders as a way to maintain the diverse fabric of, of the Lebanese society.
Speaker 3 00:32:39 It's a big, uh, lie that if we take, uh, if we get rid of our sectarianism, then we will lose our fabric. That is not true. We need, uh, a civil law. We need civil, uh, law that controls how we get married, how we divorce, how we inherited, how we give custody. I mean, in, in Lebanon, if you look at Sunni women and Shia women, one woman can have custody at the age of 14 and the other at the age of two. What's the difference between them? Biologically, they are two women. They are discriminated against all laws and lebanons, uh, all status clause in Lebanon discriminate against women. They put men on a, an upper, uh, category, whether a father, a brother, he is the <unk>, he is the guardian of the family. And that applies for so many Arab countries, by the way. So this is a key issue in struggling, uh, uh, that we need to achieve to be able to have better positioning in society.
Speaker 3 00:33:43 We really need to start with our status quo, because again, when I, I said it at the beginning of my interview, if you are discriminated against in your family, it'll be hard for you to go out to society and be strong and independent. And we've seen it in elections. I remember in elections of 2018, uh, a study was made on female, uh, Camden and what type of troubles and difficulties they have faced. Many of them have campaigned and have, uh, uh, uh, run for elections against the will of their spouses or their families. Yes. And they face not of difficulties, and sometimes their families stood against them, and it was a major obstacle for them. So what, what about other women who couldn't run for, for elections because they didn't find the support they needed? So this is just one example. Yeah. To me, Lebanese women are strong and visible because we have an open society.
Speaker 3 00:34:41 Okay? I know that Lebanon has lots of difficulties and issues, uh, women issues is one of them. But at the same time, the level of openness, uh, relatively, I'm, I'm not saying it's ideal, and the some, uh, the democratic system, which is, uh, not perfect, uh, at the same time, but the type of society we have enabled women to be visible, but they are not treated in cub. And if you look at the political presentation in Lebanon, it's one of the lowest in the world. Uh, the, and the major obstacle from my perspective, is the sectarian, uh, fabric and the sectarian laws that govern our, uh, lives and our politics and
Speaker 1 00:35:26 Lamont. Yeah, I'm just like you. It took me so long, uh, to be able to, um, internalize what feminism means to me and call myself a feminist, and I'm a very proud feminist as well. And you, you talked about the counter of course, narrative that, um, uh, people are using now against, uh, feminists in the Arab world. Um, you know, having, uh, certain agendas westernized, uh, against family values against religion, culture and all that. What, what would you say? Yeah, what you even dignified with a, a, a, a response? You know, as an academic, I would say, you know, I know myself, I, you know, people are gonna see what, you know, what my accomplishments. But I think we, we are at, at a stage that we need to find a counter narrative as well. We need to sit down and, uh, agree on the main, uh, guidelines for all of us to follow when we are faced with such, uh, an accusation. What do you think? First
Speaker 3 00:36:28 Of all, let's start with the westernized, uh, approach, uh, about feminism in the Arab world. Uh, if I look at the region, whenever we have a crisis, uh, whether for women, men, refugees, et cetera, we see people tend to live and go to, to Europe and America. They tend to go to western countries, even the conservative ones. Why? Because there is a functioning society over there, and it did not happen from, uh, from nothing. It happened because they have a structural, uh, uh, solid ground based on democracy. I'm not saying it's ideal. It has its flaps, uh, gaps and deficiencies, but you have societies that have maintained at least the minimum, the basics that every person need. Men and women, and refugee and whomever. Again, we can criticize the west a lot, but I'm talking from my point of view. When women are being discriminated against, we have seen lots of cases among Syrian refugees going to Germany, women asking for divorce, the moment they reach the, uh, they reach Germany because they have been either subject to violence or, uh, any kind of, of mistreatment.
Speaker 3 00:37:44 And they are conservatives, and they are, uh, with the, with scars, they are, uh, they, I'm not saying that they have left their culture, but they want minimum dignity, minimum basic rights, and they manage to a, achieve it in a functional system, in a democracy. So asking for democracy is for the bene benefit of everyone. And here, if you look at the hypocrisy of our regimes, I I I'll speak about Lebanon, I'm sure you will find the resonating examples and, and the Gulf and Lebanon, and we didn't so far, women issues and women rights are in the cold of any advanced society. And unless we achieve that, we'll be stuck as we are. If you look at any troubled, uh, country in Syria, Iraq, if you look at the wars and refugee issue, and if you look, uh, the atrocity is committed against the, I mean, this wouldn't have been recognized without us approving and reading our text, our culture, and trying to move on. Exactly. If we keep hiding, then we will not achieve. Yeah, we will not achieve, unfortunately,
Speaker 1 00:38:50 And unfortunately because women are not a part of this conversation when it comes to the sacred text, whether it's in, in Islam and Christianity, or in any other religion, um, I love the Islamic, uh, feminism movement that the, the original one that started with, um, you know, the feminist interpretation of pran. Now, this is a conversation that is valid in some contexts. We, as you said, we need to talk about Islam, how it was, how it became, and let's talk about the history and how all of those things evolved through the history. We have a history that is absent, that has been raised, okay? Of all of those, what they tried to take us to, you know, back to, uh, 1,500 years ago, uh, but has evolved through that history that we don't know about because we haven't studied history, the, our history, um, as women in Islam has been erased too. So we're
Speaker 3 00:39:45 Banned, we're banned from studying it. The issue is that we, we are not allowed to have this open discussion, and I agree with you, sorry for the interruption, but I agree with you footie. We need to have women on the table of this discussion, this kind of discussions.
Speaker 1 00:40:00 Yep. Agree. Um, the conversation is amazing. I just don't wanna stop, but, um, you, you're, you are gonna leave us with many, uh, things and ideas to, uh, reflect on. Uh, but I'm also keen to hear one final statement from you that would inject some hope,
Speaker 3 00:40:19 Some hope
Speaker 1 00:40:20 Among all of the partners actually in the region. Tell me something, <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:40:25 Look, I, I'm, I'm dealing with a very serious topic, but I am hopeful other, otherwise I would've left. I, I mean, what gives me hope is the voices and the people that I meet on a daily basis. Uh, no, I mean, I don't, I cannot live without hope, uh, the hope of a better future. Uh, I do see lots of, of promising voices around us. I know it's a long part. I'm not gonna lie to you and say, tomorrow will be, everything will be fine. No, it not, it will not be fine tomorrow. But the journey itself is worth it. I love the journey itself and the people that it's enabling me to meet and talk to and benefit from. Uh, during this journey, we have lots of people who have, uh, nice stories to tell. And during this journey is this is what matters. When you say, when you talk about age, you talk about journeys and experiences. So I will, I don't want to miss this journey, even if it's agonizing sometimes tearful sometimes, but it's also, uh, has its laughs and, and hopes and uh, uh, and jokes. Sometimes it's, yeah, I mean, it's never one way. It's never one side. Even in the dark, you will find echoes of laughs and, uh, and, uh, Jo, uh, Joyce,
Speaker 1 00:41:47 And thank you for being a part of our journey as well. Um, it was a pleasure having you on Woman of the Middle East Podcast.
Speaker 3 00:41:54 Thank you so much, Amal. I enjoyed talking to you, and I hope we meet
Speaker 1 00:41:58 Soon. Michelle was such a pleasure. Thank you for listening and watching to stay up to date with Women of the Middle East podcast. You can subscribe and don't forget to rate us. If you would like to contact me directly, you can do so on Instagram or Twitter or via email. This is Women of the Middle East podcast.
