Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:03 Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast, woman
Speaker 2 00:00:07 Of the Middle East.
Speaker 1 00:00:09 This podcast relates to realities of Arab women and the rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present the multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East. My name is a Maki. I'm a feminist, scholar and educator.
Speaker 2 00:00:28 This is Women of the Middle East podcast.
Speaker 1 00:00:31 This is season four woman voices across genres where I will be speaking to women producing feminist content across different genres and outlets. These courageous voices delve into untapped areas such as women with disability, hybrid identities, intergenerational trauma, feminist narrative, and activism, and much, much more. I'm your host, Emma Maki, contributing to creating a new narrative about us by us.
Speaker 2 00:00:56 This is Women of the Middle Eastern Podcast.
Speaker 1 00:00:59 Hello and welcome to Woman of the Middle East Podcast. We have an exceptional guest date all the way from the magical la uh, her highness. Say, the <inaudible> say, born to a mother from the uk and a father from Herman is a well established mental health clinical counselor and hypnotherapist and PTs trainer with over 21 years of experience. She is the founder of Whispers of Serenity Arm Man's first of its kind mental health clinic and holistic wellbeing center since 2011. Sma, lovely to have you on. Woman of the Within East Podcast,
Speaker 3 00:01:40 Dr. A. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. I like how you almost make me younger. It's 23 years, but I like it. I like it. <laugh> always younger. Very excited to be on.
Speaker 1 00:01:54 Well, I'm very, very happy really to have you. We did have you last, uh, well the beginning of this month. Uh, you paid this to visit and you saw our studio and we talked a bit about the podcast. So we're very lucky to have you and we are very lucky in the Arab world to have women like you. Um, there are many areas that I would love to cover and talk to you about. Um, some are, um, within the areas of, of shame and stigma in our part of the world, but others are areas that we've already break in broke, um, barriers and uh, one of which is embracing one's self and and accepting one's self. So you are a hybrid. Your mother is from one culture, your father from another culture. The cultures are not basically similar at all. Um, talk to me about diffusion of both cultures in your, you know, the way you present yourself. Uh, how, um, much of this, uh, fusion, uh, has spill over in your choices in life. Tell me more about you as a hybrid.
Speaker 3 00:02:59 So really actually, um, it's quite interesting because if, it doesn't matter how much you are mixed in cultures in the end, there's some very similarities. Like people from Ireland are very family oriented, very, you know, that they have that culture and we have it as well. Even though, I mean my mom lived in London, did not live, uh, in Ireland. But it was a big, uh, first of all, I was able to make this lovely connection between two cultures. Um, it made me who I am today. Uh, it made me learn a lot about different cultures, basically as well and be open to accepting different cultures in my job. It was a huge blessing because I always think it's good, different how they, how they, and this was how I, the, as I'm a lot of people but me was the there as well. Um, a lot of times I would actually, um, connect with lots of new people every summer and staying with my granny was big, huge cause she was a person who actually looked after people who were elderly, who had autism. So that, since I was small, I used to see this kind of culture of giving back to society, of being in mental health. So it was very natural for me when I chose what I chose to be. So honestly, it's been a lovely, lovely.
Speaker 1 00:04:28 So in those 23 years, um, what are the main issues that you think have emerged? Um, but but also if there has been any change in, in, uh, the intensity, uh, or the degree of those issues post covered, for example.
Speaker 3 00:04:47 So basically, uh, we noticed, uh, that the problems that were already there and people who were already going through things, if it was socially or psychologically, it basically escalated in covid so it didn't just suddenly appear. You know, there was some kind of something happening before. And we can even notice if I bring, uh, my own story cuz I like to make it more, uh, relatable that I, for example, ham, I don't have anxiety or stresses. I have the normal anxieties and stresses. That's the normal, which we all have. And I do get sad and upset. The normal sad and upset in Covid. Actually I did get very stressed in the beginning. I was very worried. I was very worried for my kids, for my family. I basically, in the beginning even didn't wanna do any work. I just wanted to bring my whole family and like, you know, save them all together then to get out of that and this is what I always do and everything that goes by me.
Speaker 3 00:05:48 I had to find a solution. I was not happy with that. I was like, no, I have to do something. So when I started doing the hotlines in Covid, working towards what, what we can do, I slowly came out of it. So this is an example for example. So imagine if somebody actually is severely anxious or has O C D, especially O C D because in Covid we were all taught or told to wash our hands all the time to weather masks go there. So it's reoccurring, repeat, repeat, repeat. And also the fear of every day hearing new information, of course people who are going through it have already, you know, gone through so much. And this is more, I even remember one of the clients telling me, uh, you see it was important to wash my hands all the time cuz she had <inaudible>.
Speaker 3 00:06:33 I was like, Hmm, okay, this part was, and us from telling people to be social and see other people telling people, no, you know, you need to only keep your distance, you know, only connect emotionally. We're telling kids no, no, no, you know, go inside. So we basically change the whole concept of us telling people, you need to be with others, you need to be social. So of course all of these things, um, have made things a bit, I mean, difficult at the time. Now we're in a phase where, well now it's a bit better, let's say, but let's say a few months back where we're like, okay, now I'll take off your masks. Okay, now I'll go back to work normal. Now all, and that's crazy as well because it's like two extremes. It had to be done slowly, desensitization. So a lot of people, if not all of us, are going through PTSD in, in certain, you know, steps.
Speaker 3 00:07:26 Not everybody's going through it the same way, but it's not a little thing that had happened. I mean, and still kind of now we have weird old, which maybe we forgot how colds are or maybe cause our, our body was, you know, inside, inside, and now all the kids are back to school, everything. So things that happen to humans are very huge changes. But we are, as God created us able to adapt and that is the good thing. But sometimes we adapt too fast and then we, you know, go back a hundred, uh, miles back or a hundred steps back. So we need to do things gradually.
Speaker 1 00:08:05 Definitely. I, for one, um, it hit me very hard as you said, um, maybe because, you know, we wanted to bring, you know, our parents, our family together. And this is why I would say that the impact of covid on woman was actually, you know, yeah, the gendered impact was this, uh, proportionate really. And it had, um, more intense impact on women, uh, whether you're, uh, because of, you know, working outside, uh, the house or inside the house. But we are the main caregivers. Um, and, and this has impacted our stress levels. Our, um, you know, besides, you know, being burnt out. Have you seen those cases in your clinic?
Speaker 3 00:08:47 I've seen cases of women being burnt out before Covid, <laugh>. I've seen in Covid men being burnt out actually, because also that the breadwinners, now we have the economy problem, all of that. And also the women, of course, they are, as you said, they're looking after the family. They're also working. There's also a lot of social problems where now we have to deal with who we live with, you know, for hours and hours where before maybe there'll be school, there'll be work. So you, you were busy, now you're all told to stay in this, you know, the space day and night. But that also was because there was problems before and now it's escalated. There is no couple that suddenly the problem just happened. So that, that's something I really wanna highlight as to do with gender. Again. Uh, of course as men and women physically we're different, but, uh, socially, sometimes there's a lot of things that we, we tend to also look, uh, in a certain way because of culture, because of religion.
Speaker 3 00:09:45 All of these aspects have to do with how we function. Um, in covid, uh, things did change. Dynamics changed. Some changed to the better, some to the worst. Some were still fixing up till now. But it was a good time to actually, um, reflect and notice, is it, is this a good relationship or isn't it? Is it, is it a compatible relationship? Are we both in this relationship or is it just one person doing everything? I always tell women, you are not the only person in this relationship. You did not have this child alone. So a lot of people just say, oh, but she's the mother. Yeah, but there's a dad. Everybody has a dad. <laugh>, you know, there's a dad. So that kind of thing is what we have to keep on infusing it. Exactly. Some women think it's not even the mentor, it's the women that encourage that thinking of only women should do this, or this is a woman's job alone.
Speaker 3 00:10:41 And that is tiring because we are fighting for them and then it's backlashing from them and that that's what's not good. And it makes us look weaker in front of, I'm not gonna say our convert cause we are together. We live in this life together. We cannot live or don't kid yourself. You cannot, you. This is how God created us and this is how it's supposed to be where we both complete each other, but things happen. Journey of life changes and we just have to remember to fix it and not just let it go. And that's what our ancestors did. Maybe our, our brand is they were like, oh, you know, as an Arabic mesh, mahi, it's okay, we eat, we have a place to sleep, you know, what else do we want? Of course that is not necessarily of life only. So these are things that we need to now as this generation and the generations to come to fix. So the journey needs to be fixed it to not just go on with no static. Of course we need static, but also the static needs to be reviewed.
Speaker 1 00:11:44 I totally agree with you and, and lots of work has to be done in this area and specific. But I know that one of the areas that you, um, also like working on a self-esteem, um, and you're focused on. Tell me more. How do you evaluate the level of self-esteem of our youth? For example, is there a generational gaps, uh, conflicts that would, you know, cause a lack of self-esteem? Is there resistance from the older generation? Tell me more about this.
Speaker 3 00:12:12 So basically when we talk about self-esteem, we always say build it. And when you build it, that means you're building a foundation that is strong. Your family is your first school. If your family build this foundation strong, you will have amazing self-esteem. If your family is breaking your self-esteem and not teaching you to be it, you know, sometimes you need to, you need the support of your family to learn it. As a child, you are born with self-esteem by doing. We always see children doing things as, you know, jumping or running or going to eat something. They're born with high self-esteem. We actually break it without knowing. Sometimes it's from worry or fear. Like we see, oh, they're gonna eat something on the ground. Oh my god, oh my god, you know, that kind of, and slowly, slowly we're actually crack. Oh, we'll say, oh, maybe you can't do that because we can't do it.
Speaker 3 00:13:02 So we're like, oh my god, you know, she can't do it. But how do you know she can't do it? It's your worries reflecting your, mirroring your fears towards your child. I always say having a self-esteem is such a power. It's such a super weapon, but it needs to be done properly. Now when it comes to this generation, we have a good group of people with very high self-esteem, but sometimes it's too high. And then we have another group who's too low. So you see it's really, they're not meeting up in the middle and having very low self-esteem brings, um, jealousy, brings fear, brings corruption. Self-esteem is a huge thing people don't really realize. And having over self-esteem sometimes could also do the same. And these are defense mechanisms. Some people don't have high self-esteem, they just show that they have it. And you notice inside they're actually really, really weak, but they have to put this defense and others just don't wanna try like the amount you said, but you can do it.
Speaker 3 00:14:02 No, I can't. But did you try? Oh, I know if I try I can't. So it's basically negative, negative, negative all the time. Building it, making programs to build it. Um, schools need to build it as well. We have schools that now kind of, they've changed their technique. When I was, uh, in school, I was in a government school, it, there was nothing about, you know, uh, doing projects, fun projects that actually teach you how to speak in front of a class. It was all memorizing and you know, you have to just keep on with the religion or poetry and it was just like a machine, you know, you didn't even understand it. And you, you memorize from fear because if you don't memorize it, you'll be in a problem with your teacher, right? But actually teaching how to present, making it creative, these are things that schools can do and they make the child feel, you know, I can do it. I mean, yesterday I was in an event for, uh, children and youth that have stutter. And that's one of the biggest problems that, uh, you, you would have in a school and people would bully this person or they would actually be very clever, but they would have fear because of the confidence. So then yesterday again, we were talking about how important it is to have surface team in your life.
Speaker 1 00:15:15 Um, you've spoken, you've spoken about schools and you've spoken about wanting to include mental health education and school curriculum. Now there are a couple of, um, efforts and endeavors, um, across the, the gulf. Uh, we know one and wait for example. But um, what are the obstacles for doing that? What do you think, uh, are the obstacles and how to overcome those obstacles? I see that the context in Armand is really, um, um, conducive and and open minded. And I think it would be lovely to Seeman leading this way too. Tell me more. What would the obstacles be?
Speaker 3 00:15:53 I think the obstacles is the basic, if you give up, which we don't give up for myself, I don't give up. The obstacles will be talking to government and them not listening or saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, you know, years and years to fuck. So then the, the, the, the biggest obstacle would be you. Are you gonna give up? Are you gonna push this more? You know, a lot of times they'll say, what's your challenges? And I'll be like, in beginning I'll think and like, yeah, I know what my cha Now I'm just thinking, you know what, it's me. If I give up Halas, if I don't give up and challenge myself, I can do it. And that's the obstacle. There's gonna be so many things happening. So many people are gonna put you down. So many people are gonna say, uh, whatever.
Speaker 3 00:16:36 Some people are not gonna say anything in your face, but they will be saying behind you, which is even worse. Some people say, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're gonna help you. We're gonna, we think this is an amazing program. And, and the amount of programs that one has given as an option to do are so many. But for whatever reason they have, if it's the, if it's the the income, if it's the the workload. So what do you do? Do you give up? Do you say, ah, Hal else I've tried my best and nobody is listening. No, you do it yourself. And that's what we're doing. So through, not alone through the clinic, I try my best to push ideas that are important for our youth and for the adults in a different way. And then once you do things, you know, sometimes government goes, oh wait a minute, look at this.
Speaker 3 00:17:22 You know, this is the light. So they're like, hmm, maybe we should listen to them, which is interesting, but it happens. This is the reality of how we live. But if you are gonna give up and go, and this is what I want to tell the youth today, stop just being don't be sensitive. It's not for you. It's just how life is. If you keep on being sensitive and giving up your amazing ideas that you have as youth and they have amazing ideas, will just disappear. So you have to push, I mean with our generation, it's just about do it, try it, try and try and try. We will put down so many time we're still being put down. We can, we are sensitive. It's not bad to be sensitive, but not too sensitive. Too sensitive can ruin all your work basically. And make you blinded too. What the good things you can
Speaker 1 00:18:08 Definitely, but we also need to create those spaces for them where they can voice their opinions. And I see that the youth don't have those spaces as well. So we're not doing a good job. Our generation is not doing a good job by doing. And as you said, I see it because I'm an educator too. So I see the trophy generation where, you know, I think we support them because each time they have done the smallest achievement, we gave them a trophy. So they think really high of themselves. But we've got to this other generation that was hit by a pandemic and that was hit by um, um, you know, social distancing and now is very lack self-confidence, lack, uh, the ability to even talk or voice what, what they feel. Um,
Speaker 3 00:18:52 So can I say something about this point?
Speaker 1 00:18:54 Tell me
Speaker 3 00:18:55 You're right and every point you said, but just think of it in another way. This generation obviously, and it's not the covid just hit now like three years. So they were, they were there before. If we talking about not the ones that are born in Covid, the ones who were already going to university, um, because things were so difficult in Covid, there was a lot of leeway in terms of studying in university. You guys did an amazing job online and all of that, that took your time, which you were also going through fear and through stresses. Things were done a little bit easily, but not normal. The normal is to be in a class. But there was something called online, which not every student can study online. For example, my daughter the youngest, she's not a person that can sit. I mean, we get fed up online, you can imagine.
Speaker 3 00:19:43 But there was a lot of, okay, let's try and see how we can help. Okay, let's try and think how we can make it easier. So in a way, in a, in a like crazy way, was it really that bad? Like just think of it, it wasn't the norm. Norm is to be physically somewhere, but were they left for dry or was there ideas? And now even the ideas are being used even now. So actually it was a good turn. I think we need to look at things in so many ways because it's so easy to look at things in, in one way and just feel it was terrible. It's so easy, especially with, with how life has been. It has not been easy. Okay? But at the same time, a lot of things came out of it. New ideas, new thinking. Okay, what do we need to do differently?
Speaker 3 00:20:33 How can we support different, I totally agree that when it comes to youth, they need to voice their ideas themselves, which is happening a lot. But the spaces need to be more. There is spaces now, but there, there needs to be more. I mean, I know you have an amazing space. You're in M seven, that's, I've seen it, it's beautiful and it's for youth. I've seen it myself. But now youth need to come on, you know, pull up your socks, let's do it. Let's work together. Two generations have to work together. You know, we have the expertise and the youth, this don't work together and these ones can't work together. Together you can make amazing change. Like you, now you're in an amazing youthful place and you're also giving your expertise. So if we talk in a different dialogue, and we also include them of course, in this dialogue, which it's happening before you used to be so annoyed, I'll go to a conference about youth, there's no youth.
Speaker 3 00:21:28 Wow, what's this kind of conference? I'll go to a press conference about an uh, you know, for you. But there's no youth in the press conference. It has to be two together. And we have to look at things shrink. So many different. We're in a time where we thought that we were thinking Covid came and said, ha, you're not, you know, you are still not thinking. You did not have a proper plan. B 3, 2, 1, nothing. You were basically shut down. And it pushed us now to think more deeply. You know? Now I'm not saying this, I mean, it shows scientifically and medically, this is not gonna be sadly the last pandemic. But now what are we gonna do for the next one? That's the question. Are we gonna be ready? Maybe we won't because we don't know again. But maybe now we have an inkling, maybe we won't take things for granted.
Speaker 3 00:22:19 Last time when it happened, we were like, oh, it's in China. It's in China. So far we didn't care. And that's how humans are. Sadly. We didn't think, okay, but in China, they are humans. They're going through something. We thought it's so far. So God said, you know what, I'll bring it to your door. Let's see how you deal with it. And he brought it to our door. So now are you ready for the next one or are we still like, you know, maneuvering or are we as humans do forget. That's the scary part. I was very worried that we are. And it seems that that's fair way.
Speaker 1 00:22:55 Yeah, we don't learn from history, do we? You're absolutely right. Yeah. Um, I've noticed, um, an increase in, um, awareness, um, about mental health in general, but also about, uh, holistic wellbeing. Um, so if I speak about Qatar, for example, um, um, you know, many yoga studios have, have emerged since, uh, COVID 19. And uh, uh, lots of coaching. Um, you know, grassroot, you know, people from here, from this society whom you can talk to and, and, and interact with, uh, who would understand where you're coming from, your culture, your gender, and all that. New things could be met with skepticism, right? Could you tell people who are faced with that type of skepticism?
Speaker 3 00:23:48 Skepticism has been around us from the beginning of time. Everything that's new is received as weird. Okay? If we go through all this, the years of the twenties, forties, fifties, sixties, uh, so on, there was always something new. And it was always like, what is this? And then after a while, you know, it catches up. The thing is, the way we try and convince people about our points are, I think not the right way. We try and convince them aggressively. And anything that's convinced aggressively doesn't work. Cause the person already is like, shut down, shut down. You know? But if we do a kind of educational condition and, and an awareness, I mean, it's the same thing with mental health. If I'm gonna go, you know, you have to go to the therapist, you have to because that's good for you and you know this certain therapy is good for you and that certain therapy, nobody will come, nobody will listen to me and they'll be just going, oh my God.
Speaker 3 00:24:43 She's just like, what? What's up with her? You know? It's the same thing with people who talk about, who talk about, um, energy. Yeah, because I work with energy and, and energy and okay, hello, we have energy and put an actually in our school, everything. But the way we say it doesn't work. We can't force information. We have to teach information. It's very different. I mean, al you're a doctor, teaching information is very different than forcing information. If we also force it with the normal way, like yoga's good for you because of your breathing and all of that, you know, I heard from this certain, you know, da, da da da and in China or in Japan or whatever, whatever they, and then I'll be like, yeah, okay, bad. It's different when I say, you know, I've tried it and, and I feel that when I use it, this, this, this, it's very different. Our dialogue has to change. And that's what I was saying earlier, being creative. I'm a person. I'm not very into your honestly. People think I am. I don't know, maybe they think I'm, I like kickbox.
Speaker 3 00:25:51 I don't find me as a yoga person. I find myself as a person that goes, you know, so when anyone comes to talk to my, and I have yoga in my clinic for people who believe in it. So it depends what makes you tick, what goes for you might not go for me. So you can't convince me in that way. You can show me, you know, that kind of, for example, when people talk about yoga, and then for example, I like laughter yoga that I find it interesting, but I don't like the other, so that I don't like it. I don't see myself in that kind of thing. Why is my friends won't see themselves in kickboxing. They find it to it. What's this? It's aggressive. So it's what rocks your boat, but also what rocks your boat might not rock your friend's boat. So it's basically trying to tell someone an information, not aggressively and not, I have to convince you, you know, know some people come to you. I have to convince you, by the way, the moment you say that the person's already not convinced, they've already got their guards. So I think it's the way. So it's not so, but if you gonna, okay, I, you know, they say this, I won't do it. Every time you do something, you'll do that. Then you won't have something that you love. And that's very important.
Speaker 1 00:27:06 Well, what I hear from you is we are in a position right now to change, um, to create a new dialogue, to create a new narrative about us, um, by us, basically. Right? So, and this is what, um, this is one of the areas that I really, really wanna focus on, uh, where we are in this podcast speaking to the world, because we are, we have adopted English as, as you know, a medium of communication. But we are also speaking internally to our own people, to our own woman before actually anyone else. Uh, we have to really start talking about, um, us and our own representation by taking ownership over it. And you are doing that. I love the fact that you say we need to start a new dialogue. We need to start talking about those things. We need to reframe it differently. When we talk about women, we need to talk about woman and men, okay?
Speaker 1 00:27:58 Because we're together in it. Um, when we speak about youth, we need to speak about youth and families because we're also, um, together in it. Um, if you wanna leave us with, with, with something, with, um, an empowering statement, with an empowering idea, with something to reflect on. And again, as much as I, you know, I used, I've just used empowering a couple of times, um, uh, I, I am skeptical, okay, with the overuse of empowerment when it comes to women, because sometimes, and depending on the context as you said, uh, we need to contextualize everything, you know, one of which is what we gained, um, out of, uh, studying online, for example. And I totally agree with you. Um, but also if we contextualize empowering in terms of woman and our part of the world is just over, um, overstated really, because sometimes it's not empowering woman that needs to be done, it's empowering. It's her circumstances. For example, the social context or the legal context, wearing all of this in mind, what could you leave us?
Speaker 3 00:29:08 So it's empowering the journey, empowering the idea. Women are born powered. I really totally believe that. But in the journey, they need the support. It's very different from empowering. I mean, this is a word that we got and we just continuously use. Sometimes we don't really think about it. Um, no pressure here. You're saying give us, you know, an inspiring whatever. That's like a lot of pressure. But you know what? I'm gonna make it as simple as I can. My tongue cliche, but honestly, this is what works for me personally. I, I believe any kind of change is very difficult. It's very challenging and it's something that's needed. So I also believe that change will only begin with the person themself. And that's something again, I've learned within the years. So you cannot say, I really, I wanna change Dr. Ed, I wanna change her ideas.
Speaker 3 00:30:04 No, you change how you perceive her ideas, woman, you do that, you change yourself then around your surrounding changes. And that's what would work for you. And don't think, oh, it's gonna be easy peasy. It's not easy, but it's amazing because anything that doesn't have spice is extremely boring. Another thing a lot of people say, but it's so difficult to do change and, and you know, people and all of that, they might not like the new change and all of that. It's, it's about people and culture. In the end, you know, everybody goes on with their life and you are with your life. In the end. Not everybody will love you. And that is normal in the end. It's okay to have people not to love you because that will actually make you think life is not as easy. You need to feel a little bit of that pinch, you know, otherwise you'll be too relaxed.
Speaker 3 00:30:58 You won't do anything. You'll be like, Halas, I've done everything. Everything is going my way. So a little bit of bumps are good. A little bit of, you know, people upset with you. It's fine, you know, and also it's, it's amazing. People love you toban, but you cannot have everyone love you. There is no everyone to love you, right? So those things having change begin with you. Understanding that you're gonna have people who love you and people who won't. Loving challenges, enjoying the journey. So getting to the top of the mountain is not the idea, the journey that you're gonna spend, what you're going to see from here to the top is what's worth it. Otherwise just take a helicopter and that's gonna be boring.
Speaker 1 00:31:43 <laugh>, I love it. Thank you so much for sharing your journey, your thoughts with us. It was a pleasure having you on, woman of
Speaker 3 00:31:51 Thank you so much. And I'm so pleased we're able to do this and um, so happy to meet you and I wish you all the best. And to all of the women, you can do it. Just don't think about everything that just people throw at you culture-wise. You have a brain, and your brain, we say in Arabic, use in the, is as heavy as gold. So all the best.
Speaker 0 00:32:15 Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:32:18 Thank you for listening and watching to stay up to date with Women of the Middle East podcast. You can subscribe and don't forget to rate us. If you would like to contact me directly, you can do so on Instagram or Twitter or via email. This is Woman of the Middle East podcast.
