Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle east podcast. Women of the Middle East. This podcast relates the realities of Arab women and their rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present the multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East. My name is Amal Malki. I'm a feminist scholar and educator. This is Women of the Middle east podcast. Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast.
It's a pleasure having you.
[00:00:36] Speaker B: Thank you for having me, Dr. Aman.
[00:00:39] Speaker A: An educator or an activist?
[00:00:41] Speaker B: I'm more educated than an activist, actually, but I'm a combination of both. I'm just a human being, you know, I'm just trying to live my life. But I see myself as an educator more than an activist. Probably people would like me to be an activist because sometimes I do speak up, but I do it because I want to do it, not responding to their wants. So that's why I think I'm like more of a free spirit and educator.
I do things just because I want to do them, not because people are expecting me to do it.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: You're a Kuwaiti intellectual whose education, cultural and political awareness and human rights and social justice consciousness really leads you, leads your ideas, leads your conversation with the, with the society, lead your acts as well, and makes you an easy target. Sexist and sexist groups that exist of course, everywhere, but they are very dominant now in the Gulf states. Let's begin by telling me your story. You have a degree in philosophy from the States. You came back to the, To Kuwait to teach. Tell me more about that.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: Yeah, so I. I got my PhD from University of Virginia in Charlottesville, and I got back to Kuwait and I started teaching. You know, all my life I thought that I will do something different, but I didn't know what I'm going to do. But I felt it. I felt like there's something inside of me that is different and it wants to come out. But it didn't come out until end of 2015. That was in a public talk. It's about the segregation of education because we had at that time some member of the parliament who wanted to segregate the Kuwait University and all the higher education institutions. Kuwait University, since it was established in 1966, it was Kuwait. So we thought this is just not the old Kuwait that we knew, and this is like a new trend is going to take over Kuwait. So I talked about how these Islamists are attacking us, attacking our freedoms, our free choices, how they have shaped our lives, how the fatwa is used against women more than anything in the world. So. And this particular speech caught the attention of a media presenter who was asking me to be a guest in one of his shows. I postponed, like, for three months. This specific interview made all this huge wave that until now, I can. I'm living it until 2024. It's like I'm destined to say it. I don't know. So I said things like about Sharia and Aldous, and the constitution is. Is the highest legal document that in the. In the country. And they just. It was lives Islamists. They got really mad and they wanted. And they attacked me. And some of them filed claims against me in the court.
And it was something like. Went until the New York Times, the University of Virginia, they. They contacted me again and the BBC, and it was all over the news. But in June 2016, like, after two, three months, the. The prosecutor said Sheikha didn't say anything wrong. She was just defending the constitution and she was doing the right thing. But at that time, the Muslim Brotherhood in Kuwait, they were controlling everything. The social media, the student union, the member of parliament. So they were so strong and they attacked me. And now when I see what's happening to them all over the world, I feel. I feel so good. I feel like this is karma, this is the revenge, you know?
[00:05:06] Speaker A: But this is at the heart of your story, because as an intellectual, as an educator, you have the right to engage with current issues in your society. And you said that I was a bit afraid of speaking up. And we are in societies where we know that we would be very easy targets if we spoke up. And you said something else. You said that I still live it until today. Why? How did you feel that you paid the price of free speech?
[00:05:34] Speaker B: Well, in a good way. Now I'm living the what happened, but in a good way. So I got all the publicity, and I become so strong, even though I was afraid at times, but I got so stronger that I can speak up. I'm respected for saying what I believe in, even though that it was. In many times, it was harsh and hard. So I speak up. I'm proud of myself. I made myself. I'm a role model to some young men and women.
[00:06:06] Speaker A: Did it affect your teaching career? They called for firing you.
[00:06:10] Speaker B: They do that because at that time, we had a parliament. They say things to the media just to get the votes of the voters, to become heroes, you know, True. Some of them said, oh, she should be out of Kuwait University. But in fact, no, I was doing very well. And until now, I'M not just like any other professor who studied in the US and came back that only have a degree, but from the inside, no one knows what he really is. I'm different. I'm me and I speak myself. And I'm proud of who I am.
[00:06:45] Speaker A: The interesting thing about Kuwait in specific, it's way advanced politically than the other Gulf states. So there is a marriage between ideology and politics. You had the parliament, you have political, you know, sectors who are announced and have certain agendas, but one agenda is never announced but practiced in Kuwait and in other Gulf states, even if they don't have political parties. And that's the gender based violence, the sexism that doesn't want women intellectuals in specific in our countries to speak up. And this is where the problem lies because this is where you cannot pinpoint and say, look, they've done harm more than good by attacking me. Yes. Now in retrospect you say that this made me stronger, this made me vocal about, you know, the, the causes that I believe in. But it did impact, and I'll tell you a very short story. There was a smear campaign against me on social media. It was ridiculous and it was, as you said, because of one interview, and it was an interview on Franz Van Kat and it was in Arabic. It was more about me, about me as a person, about my career. And I spoke about how I loved writing really early on in my life. I published at 15 years old. And I remember it was the second Gulf War, you know, when it was the invasion of Kuwait. I started publishing poetry and it ignited like a sense of nationalism, you know, Gulf nationalism and arts and all that. So it was really about me and my, you know, my trajectory and my career. But I did speak about how there were more male writers than female writers. And I felt back then that Arabic wasn't a language that took in my feelings as a female, a woman writer and all that. Until, you know, I went to London, I switched my writings into English and then came back and, and had this consolidation with my previous self and started writing in Arabic again. This was taken out of proportion. Okay. There were WhatsApp campaign against me. Social media went crazy. Amal Malki is against Arabic language. It sex. It says that it's a sexist language and this is the language of Quran and such and such. And they called for this woman should not be actually teaching our girls back then. That devastated me because I didn't say those things. So my point is, as women, we're always target if we speak up as women. And in Gulf states where the educational attainment of women is very high. Those women are Gulf women from Qatar, from Kuwait, from Bahrain, from the Emirates. They're intellectuals. They can speak on our behalf in international arenas, but the moment we speak up in our societies, they want to silence us.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree.
If a professor who's your colleague would say the same thing, even if they don't agree with him, they wouldn't attack him like they attacked you. I agree. I think that's because they see us as a threat. We speak up, it's dangerous for them. They feel like we might change society. We might let other young women wake up. So that would make them unsafe. So our voices make them uncomfortable. I think we can call them like the voices of tradition. Sometimes the voices. These voices are not the voices of men, even women. Women have this voice of tradition, and they want to pull you down because you represent a threat to the society. I watched some of your other podcasts, and I thought, well, I should say this, not necessarily men are against women. Host speak up. Because many of the attackers are women. Women who are afraid to change, who are happy the way with. With the things as they are. And also, I should say, like, some men are really our friends, our supporters. Yeah. They just. They want us to change. They want us to speak up. They. They provide the platform. They defend us in the social media.
[00:11:11] Speaker A: True. And our societies are small societies and young societies, so I wouldn't go for the dichotomy between tradition and. Because what I think really is patriarchy. So patriarchy is really, really entrenched in our societies and. Patriarchy.
[00:11:24] Speaker B: Yeah, so patriarchy is the. Our tradition, you know, what is our tradition? It is patriarchal, you know, and.
[00:11:30] Speaker A: And it produces men and women. But in our societies, so when we think about the political, okay, atmosphere and the Gulf, you know, as you said. You said it at the beginning, trends. We are receivers of ideological trends, okay, from all around us. And we need to create our authentic outlook for the world. And this won't happen with one ideology or one outlook.
[00:12:01] Speaker B: Yeah, we have to keep speaking up, and we have to listen to each other. People here sometimes do. They do speak up, but they don't listen. And so everyone thinks that what he says is true, but you need to listen to other people because there might be something that would benefit you, that you might take and make something new out of it. In Kuwait that affects us. Not just the tradition, the patriarchal. This is already there. And there is also the Salafists, and there are the Muslim Brotherhood. And to me, In Kuwait, we suffered a lot. Not just in Kuwait, Egypt, everywhere. I mean, the Muslim Brotherhood, they did a very bad job in controlling us, in controlling the institutions, in controlling our lives, in controlling the media. They work really in a very clever way. They know how to get young people. So these are all the voices. And plus, of course, we are open to the universe. So the liberal voices, the Westerners, the Easterns, everyone. And so we have to listen and read and engage and communicate with all these ideologies to get our own true, authentic, original views.
[00:13:26] Speaker A: We are noticing that there is a systematic vilification of feminists in the Gulf. So, oh, she's a feminist. And feminist means a certain thing to certain people. Now, how is that true? Yeah, how is this happening? And why is it leading to the civilification of woman who calls for equal rights and responsibilities?
[00:13:49] Speaker B: You know, it is strange how people give you labels. You know, they label you. I, I have never said that I'm a liberal, but people who say, oh, she's a liberal. I've never said I'm a feminist, but people would say, she's a feminist. And what happens that there are other people who you do not agree with, who are just a total shame, and they are put in the same category as you. So Amal Malky is a feminist and an ex person who's just, just a shame, and she's also a feminist. And then you get all the, the criticism of what she's doing. Although you're totally different. You're, you're sophisticated, you're an educator. The culture now was based on the social media, and social media is just. They're not educated and they control the public view of the narrative. They label you as a feminist, but in a bad way, not in a feminist, in a good way. Like you're, you're defending the rights of women. No, they label you as a feminist, like someone who is going to wreck our society.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: You say those are the voices of the voiceless. Yeah, those are the voices of people who are not educated, who are not cultured.
[00:15:00] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: But they control the narrative because they.
[00:15:05] Speaker B: Are a lot in number.
Their numbers are more than educated people. And they have nothing to do except spreading these things in the media. Most of the people, they don't want to look for the truth, so they just believe what's written. Their voices are really loud. And they do control the media.
But at the end, you are the important one, but you are the one who's making the change. You are the one who's writing books, writing articles, meeting people Doing this podcast. So you are building, but these people are just the voices who are trying to attack you.
But at the end, they're not leaving any trace. But you are.
[00:15:55] Speaker A: I love your positivity.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: I think this is the truth. I mean, who are they at the end? Who are they? And some of them, even. They don't have a real name in their bio. Nothing. So they just. They have some issues, and they keep attacking people and spreading this false understanding of you. But then, no, we are putting our true faces and our true names, and we are proud of ourselves, and we say what we believe in. So we are building, and they're trying to attack us.
[00:16:29] Speaker A: I think a lesson from this conversation to the viewers and to the listeners is it's so important for someone, before putting themselves out there, especially a woman from our part of the world, is to know her rights. And you in Kuwait, you know your rights, you know, you know, you know your constitution, you know where people should stand and. And not, you know, there are limits even for conversation. You can take them to court. And that's very.
[00:17:01] Speaker B: Yes, of. Yeah, yes, of course. Yeah, yeah, we know our rights in Kuwait. It's. You can go to the police station. You can find a claim. The stigma of, you know, going to the police station, it's just now it's fading. Yeah.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: Again with a very robust civil society in Kuwait. Women groups. How much did you feel you were supported by those groups of women?
[00:17:27] Speaker B: Even last night, I was invited to a birthday party, and one of the women there, younger woman I haven't met before, and she said she recognized me, and she said, I gave you my voice in the election.
There are people. And they were so happy that I spoke love until now. I can feel it. Imagine, nine years after that interview, still there are people who feel that have changed their life. I've touched them in some way, and they look at me like a role model. Until now.
[00:18:03] Speaker A: I know how people look up to you, especially younger women, and I know that we are paving the way for them. This is why I speak up, and this is why I do this podcast. And this is why I tackle sometimes topics that are taboo, because they need to know that this happens. Okay.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:23] Speaker A: To be strong and you need to go, you know, to walk the path for others to follow as well.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: You know, I believe that everyone has a message and have something that you. You have to do. So to me, I don't do it because I want to lead other people or to show them the way or to pave the way or to be A role model. I've never thought about these things. I did it and I'm still doing it because I feel like it. You know, I'm just expressing myself. One day, I feel like I don't want to speak up, which happened many times. People would ask me for an interview and said, no, I don't want to. So I just do it because I want to speak up. There is something I want to say. So now when. When your team contacted me, I thought about it. It's been a long time since I've been in. In an interview. So I talked about it. Then I said, you know, Sheikha, you need to go out and speak because at the end of 2024, you need to pay respect to yourself. You did a very good job. So I thought this interview would just. It's like, you know, to put the. A full stop at the end of this long sentence that I've been writing since 2016.
[00:19:39] Speaker A: You know, I focused on woman representation in different fields. Media was one of them. This is why I would say that the whole concept of role modeling is different from what it is in this narrative of empowerment, because I don't like it. You know, who speaks about empowerment? State. Okay, State use woman and empowerment in the same sentence to show that they're doing stuff to empower women. But it's not.
So I'm not really keen on using empowerment as much as just the power of representation. Okay, Is role modeling as a faculty member, as someone who loves, as you said, teaching, educating, that's role modeling. For someone who, if you see something that you need to say your opinion because you have a strong opinion, that is role modeling too.
[00:20:32] Speaker B: Let me tell you something. If Amali Malky were chosen, were chosen to be a minister in the government, you will not be a role model. You will be a number in the cabinet. And you are just a proof of women empowerment.
[00:20:49] Speaker A: Okay?
[00:20:49] Speaker B: And you won't be free to speak. You will only follow the rules. But Emani Malki and Sheikh Al Jasim, we are more powerful because we are free. So if you are free, you can say whatever you want. You express yourself, then these young men and women will see you as a role model.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: Look up to. You will learn from your experience. You don't have to even say it. When we had the first Shura Council elections in Qatar, I reached out to you, and you were a part of a training that I held. It was online post Covid also, just like you, you're here today talking to me, to the viewers, to the listeners, because you want to claim your history and you want to own your narrative. And that's important, extremely important. I think it's very important for women intellectuals, especially from the Gulf state, because we're not a lot, by the way. We're not, you know, and compared to the MENA region and other parts of the Arab world, there are a lot of women intellectuals. They have their own unions, you know, they have on platforms to converse. We. We don't. We really don't. Just like you. Yes, I want to claim it. When I was a dean, I felt there was a stage where my position as an educator became politicized and everything I say was taken against me. So I chose to step down. I miss being an educator. I miss having my own voice that would reflect me.
[00:22:34] Speaker B: Back in 2012, 13, 14, there was a lot of things happening inside myself and things that want to be out there. So I started writing articles in Qabasi newspaper, it's a local newspaper in Kuwait. And then in 2015, I started speaking up in public. And then everything happened. So I'm just very true to myself. There was something brewing inside of me, but now I feel so good. I. I just put everything out and I feel in peace and harmony with myself. So when your team contacted me, I said, okay, I should just pay a tribute to myself because I did a very good job. And, you know, when any person would tell me about their story, I would say kind things and I appreciate what they do and I try to lift them up. And I said, okay, you need to be kind to yourself. You need to appreciate what you did and just say good things to yourself. So that's why I'm here with you. Just to say thank you to myself, actually. Thanks to myself, you know, would you.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: Venture into politics again?
[00:23:48] Speaker B: I'm never out of it, actually. I'm still. I follow everything I write, my views. Sometimes I don't write because not writing is. Is saying something, but I speak when I want to speak, but I'm always there. I follow everything. I'm never out of politics in Kuwait, so I don't know what's going to happen in the future. Maybe. I love life, you know, I love. I love every part of life. I. I love the social and political part of it, but I also love my motherhood. I love my kids, and I look forward to. To the next part of life when I become a grandmother.
[00:24:29] Speaker A: I love it. I love it. On this very positive note, doctor, lovely to talk to you. Lovely to have you on Woman of the Middle east podcast. Thank you for accepting our invitation.
[00:24:40] Speaker B: Thank you, Dr. Amal, for everything. Thank you for your team. Thank you. It was a pleasure being with you.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: This is Women of the Middle East. Thank you for listening and watching. To Stay up to Date with Women of the Middle east podcast. You can subscribe and don't forget to rate us. If you would like to contact me directly, you can do so on Instagram or via email.
