Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:03 Hello and welcome to Women of the Middle East Podcast, Woman of the Methodist. This podcast relates to realities of Arab women and the rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present the multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle East. My name is a Malki. I'm a feminist, scholar and educator. This is season three, conversations with young feminists. This is Women of the Middle East Podcast. Uh, very happy to have you on Woman of the Middle East Podcasts. Uh, this is actually our second attempt to record this episode was in this time it works, <laugh> ala. Um, your experiences and the wealth of, um, um, experiences that you bring to the woman movement and, and Egypt and in the Arab world is amazing. I'd like to, uh, though focus on, uh, cyber feminism. Uh, as you know, cyber feminism has been taking lots of attention, uh, especially in, in our era.
Speaker 1 00:01:15 Um, it is classified as one of the, uh, latest woman movements across the world. Um, so women movements in different parts of the world, uh, thrived, uh, using, um, social media and, um, and the new media, um, to avoid romanticizing cyber feminism and cyber activism. You have your own take on it, and you have your own story. Well, on one hand, yes, it gave women who had ya who didn't have the opportunity to contribute, um, um, act, you know, in, in a very active, in a very active way, uh, to previous movements. It gave them the opportunity to, um, to trespass the public severe, to be active, uh, to, um, uh, gather, to organize themselves. And we saw this in, um, the so-called Arab Spring. You have your own version and reality of that particular moment in history. Uh, can you tell us more about it?
Speaker 2 00:02:27 Um, as we were, uh, speaking before I do, uh, actually see it as an opportunity course, it is, uh, but also an obstacle, I would say, like in a different word. We would not have chosen that the movement, um, if we can call it the movement, uh, or the activism on feminism, would be totally on, uh, or behind screens. Now, uh, I remember on the eighth of, uh, Marsh, uh, of 2011 when, um, women NGOs announced a marsh for, uh, women in from TA square. No, no, not many joined, and not many were happy about it. Some were really angry about the disconnection. The year after on the 2012, it was a huge marsh. Many were there, men and women from the square, people who would have never known about those NGOs. Sometimes, uh, probably because they have already touched the need to defend those rights. They have already been involved in initiatives that has to do with campaigning for those rights. Being online is a must now given the, uh, circumstances, uh, in each, in the Arab where, uh, most of it, But it also has, its, um, it's disadvantages because it's a pressure. It disconnects you as a person or as an entity from the constituency. You really actually, uh, trying to, uh, promote the rights off. And it's also an issue of are we,
Speaker 2 00:04:35 Um, are we being actually bullied online in and pressured online as women and as feminist, uh, men, women, non-bar in general, more? And is it not easier to hide us
Speaker 0 00:04:56 To,
Speaker 2 00:04:58 To actually, um, attack what we are saying easier? Because you can't, you can't be that visible. You don't have the, the, the, the, um, the unground supporters who would be there to defend the idea you're, you're working on. That does not mean that all women, uh, feminists where NGOs work on mine only because we have actually, um, different women groups. Like for example, uh, the NGO as a slave man is heading, uh, who do go and support women in courts and, and, and different mediation processes. And that's an aspect that is not seen online enough, for example, sometimes. But a men who need her can find her and other NGOs, uh, are accessible as well. But then it's not helping us create the movement. We really need. We need the movement that can see each other, that can organize each other, that can be there in every workplace and, um, group so we can defend and pressure and campaign for the rights to, to pass, which is not as easy when you stop knowing sometimes
Speaker 3 00:06:31 This is Women of the Middle East podcast,
Speaker 1 00:06:34 And, you know, but this is, this was a reality. Now, um, during Covid as well, most of the women NGOs during Covid of course, went online and used, um, uh, WhatsApp to, uh, to reach their victim to the victims of abuse. And, uh, we, we've tried and we've done, uh, the, the most we could utilizing social media. But I, I hear you, um, uh, lots of people actually wrote about how hybrid the approach was. Uh, cyber activism, uh, as an online, uh, platform is, um, has proven to play against us. Yahi. You've seen the Amnesty Report in 2017 about, um, abuse, online abuse on woman, and you have your own story as well. You've got your own story about harassment and reality on the ground and harassment online. Tell us a bit about that, and how do you mitigate, what do you do, uh, to protect yourself and, and, and maybe it's a lesson for others to draw from. This
Speaker 3 00:07:34 Is Women of the Middle East podcast.
Speaker 2 00:07:36 It's actually what happened is I also, uh, got hacked and ever since I, my, my reach has decreased, right? I guess that was one of the main ideas behind hacking me. Those who have higher reach still, that actually abused and harass of mine more, more than I do the amount of attack. You can see women activists, uh, receiving threats, uh, defaming, um, discussing their main and very specific personal lives, judging every move. And everywhere they say as if they are running for presidency, um, acting as if they are the enemy, because they call themselves feminists. The, the amount of pressure you get online and harassment, actually, because you're saying something that our community, the community we're in, and the society, the bigger society is not willing to listen to yet is, uh, horrible sometimes. And, uh, it motivates some to continue, continue, and it breaks some and brings them to a point of like disappearing online. Totally. Uh, I would wish not to reach that point. Um, but it, it gets hectic and hectic every day. Uh, being hacked was a traumatizing experience, but not being seen as much have given me the opportunity not to be harassed as much as well online,
Speaker 1 00:09:19 But this is the, any, this is what they want, right? Um, for us to be on a public platform is a huge threat, uh, to them. Um, you've been also brutally attacked, um, physically. Um, does this at all deter you from your cause? Did it, at some point, did you at some point think, Why am I doing that when I'm getting minimum support? Although you are getting, you know, emotional support of course, from all feminists, was, um, did it ever deter you from your cause?
Speaker 2 00:10:01 I don't want to romanticize, uh, the, uh, the abuse or torture or what I went through, but no, it did not. I got supported not just by the feminist, uh, hoops and activists I know, but also by most of the leftist and the liberal, um, um,
Speaker 2 00:10:24 Activists, uh, around around me, I know are not, but, um, and it wa it is still something that I'm trying to heal from, but yet it motivates you more because it, God forbid, I don't, you go through this, it motivates more because you think of now you have more proof why you should be doing what you're doing now. You know more that this should not be something that anyone else should go through. And because yeah, you, you, you lose your mind in a minute, sometimes you lose your mind also because civilians, as civilians as you are, are the ones attacking you. And this drives you crazy. Those are the people you, you were supposed to be fighting with against oppression, not fighting against ly. But then, which is not something easy on my mind. I'm, I'm still processing it, but then you know why you were there. You, you know exactly why what you were saying was, Hey, do you know exactly why, why what motivates you is what they need to or want to or aspire to kill in you and you, and you not want to allow that. Because the worst it gets, the more it proves that what we're doing needs to be really done. We're not doing as much now as when I was attacked, But we're not doing, we are not being organized anymore. We don't have the, the ability to do that. We're not allowed to do that. But it's, um, it's a matter of that surviving is a resistance in itself. So you keep going.
Speaker 1 00:12:17 You're absolutely right. Uh, Ra you said something and it, uh, hit me very hard. You said that, uh, the very, um, people that you, that are should be part of your cause that you March 4th and that you want to protect and you're calling for freedom and dignity for are the people who attacked you. And I'll tell you kaman, I how I, I perceive it. Um, unfortunately, um, as feminists, we've been vilified in our societies. We've been othered. They've already, um, succeeded and shed yeah, and, and, and shunning us and, and you know, having us as the others who are attacking the very being of their, um, existence, um, either culture, their religion, as if we're not a part of that fabric, what can we do now? This is a very serious problem because enough is enough and we shouldn't be stay. Yeah, we shouldn't stay quiet for such vilification. We've seen it happen, uh, with other groups, and they managed really to kill those groups. Um, what can we tell our societies and our communities, um, and how can we break those stereotypes and, and misconceptions about feminists everywhere? What would you tell them? This is Women of the Middle East podcast.
Speaker 2 00:13:49 That's a million dollar question as they say, <laugh>, we didn't have the answer for, but I wish I do, but I don't. Uh, I more would like to keep on going, but also keep on balancing between, I believe in explaining our cause, explaining why we're doing what we're doing, documenting, uh, the things we are doing, proving that through history, we've taken the right stance. Uh, we, we've taken, um, the more in, more relevant and more representative to our values, uh, stance that we value our integrity. It's a struggle. But then by time those attacking you, some of them will never be one ever. Their core benefit and interest is for you not to exist. And some you will win because they will start seeing that, uh, you've proven time after time after time that you really, um, genuine towards your causes, uh, and what you claim is what you do. And then those, there will always be people in between who will support those who are against you or support those who are supporting you and not really know where to stand. And you'll always be, um, attempting to one day have something for them to do, something beneficial for them to do. Uh, as what I've been taught, um, as an activist
Speaker 2 00:15:44 And an organizer, is that the more you have something in your campaign to give to the audience, to the campaign's audience, to give for them to do so, the ownership also moves from you to them. And then is being shared the more the campaign will succeed. And we can't do that now. We are not easily reaching that now, but, uh, I think there is no way humanity can survive this way and including our societies. And thus, more and more people will have to understand that this is the only path where equality is, uh, is, is a fact that we all have to deal with and fight for, and then win and live through happily.
Speaker 1 00:16:37 This is Women of the Middle East podcast. If there is one, uh, lesson to draw from, um, this topic of cyber feminism and, and, uh, the realities that, um, you know, one of which you represent basically in your story represent, I would say that, um, cyber feminism have, um, created, um, more divisions and more silos. So, um, you know, it's very easy for one of us to claim her space online. It's harder for her to be connected to method, as you said, to a physical. So I would suggest that we need to understand and we need to, um, um, understand, um, accept differences between, you know, between us and come together. So what we need is critical masses on the ground, uh, in the form of rights, right? Groups, feminist groups, whatever groups they are, But coming together, having one voice and having the backbone, having someone, you know, the lawyer, uh, the diplomatic, uh, you know, uh, angle of us, the, the politician. Um, so my point is if we are to join forces physically, uh, in reality, uh, even our representation online would be stronger. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 2 00:18:16 I agree. And then I see it a bit differently. As I was telling you one day when we were, when we met in Spain, uh, I believe that we need to, uh, support each other. We need to defend each other, each other's right, to exist and to freely speak and represent her or his, uh, opinions. But we also need to compete on ideas, not compete against each other, but compete on ideas, compete on developing our ideas and bringing closer more, uh, people to wear it, those ideas. For example, a liberal feminist would have a different point of view on, on some aspects than mine. A white feminist would not be someone I would not be extremely critical to wear it, most probably. But then there is a lot for me and us to learn from a feminist, um, that is, uh, Kenyan or South African and have already gained, um, uh, some steps ahead. Uh, I believe the global South should learn from, uh, each other in, in, in general. So maybe, uh, another colleague of mine might not see it this way. And I believe we all should exist. We all should just be able to have an atmosphere where we can express, uh, define, defend our ideas, and then grow from there while also supporting each other. Because there is no way, but at least without even being friends or knowing each other or anything, we need to stand by our values, that it's not allowed to include personal, um,
Speaker 2 00:20:02 Prejudice, uh, in any, uh, uh, conflict. It's not allowed to include personal secrets and, uh, personal lives of people, people's, uh, very, uh, discreet personal life into any, um, discussion of ideas. It's not allowed to villainize anyone because she's saying something that I don't agree with or someone I support don't agree with. It's, those are things that, and it's not allowed for me to watch and not do anything as well. We need to interfere and make it clear that it's not allowed. And then from there, we can all take our different buffers. It's, again, it's Mormon.
Speaker 1 00:20:55 I agree with you. Um, our differences shouldn't, um, be the highlight of, um, us coming together. On the contrary, I think we have enough commonality, uh, but also personal, um, interest shouldn't be a part of it. Sure, yeah, sure. Definitely. Um, now, now I'm very happy to have you and, um,
Speaker 2 00:21:20 Uh, pleasure is my,
Speaker 1 00:21:21 Thank you so much, uh, really, uh, I've, I've met you in <inaudible> in Spain, and I was, um, blown away by your story. Um, just your courage and you being here talking about it. Uh, although, you know, I don't want you to go through the details. Definitely, of course not. It's something that happened and you're still healing from. Um, I hope we would be a part of this, um, healing journey you're on. Uh, things will change eventually because of all of us, because we have a voice and we're using it. Yes, it's not easy. Definitely not easy, but, uh, we're here to say, fuck.
Speaker 2 00:22:04 Yeah, it's not. I'm, I'm really grateful for the opportunity to meet you and now to talk to you and to your audience. And, uh, it was really, really a pleasure and, uh, an honor. Uh, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 00:22:16 Thank you so much. This le me healthy. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 00:22:21 This is Women of the Middle East Podcast.
Speaker 1 00:22:24 Hope you enjoyed this episode. For discussion and feedback on today's episodes, contact me via Instagram. For any ideas about collaborations, please contact us at wm e emil alki.com.
