Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:04 Hello,
Speaker 1 00:00:04 Welcome to woman off of the middle East podcast. This podcast relates to the realities of Arab women and their rich and diverse experiences. It's aims to present the multiplicity of women's voices and a tuition to break cultural stereotypes about women of the middle East, as well as educate and empower the younger generation of middle Eastern women who are stripped off their historical reference. And weren't necessarily raised to believe in their agency and power to create their own destiny. Um, I'm, <inaudible>, I'm a feminist scholar and educator. I'm also the author of Arab woman and Arab news, all stereotypes. And you meet you. I created this podcast to be an extension and an update of the book and its main topic.
Speaker 0 00:00:49 Thanks,
Speaker 2 00:00:54 Come to a new and a special episode of women of the middle East podcast. So this episode is a special one. Um, and given the, the importance of the topic, of course, uh, which is, um, violence against women and the surge of violence against women during a COVID 19 pandemic, a global pandemic that resulted in a sudden and economic, uh, wrecking, um, locked down, um, had a greater impact than economy. For sure while the world took a slower pace, um, many injustices surfaced, or maybe, uh, some may say they were always there on the surface, but we were too busy to pay attention. One of these injustices is violence against women or gender based violence. And in particular domestic violence, the UN, um, a woman at the United nations entity dedicated to gender equality and the empowerment of women called it, the shadow pandemic and launched a public awareness campaign, focusing on the global increase in domestic violence and the COVID 19 health crisis for those who are world the so-called middle East, we know that violence against women predated COVID 19, and that COVID 19 like any other external factor that would be war economic crisis, et cetera, intensified the problem.
Speaker 2 00:02:15 And not only highlighted it, it certainly exacerbated the issue by deepening women's preexisting vulnerabilities. Just imagine women locked up with their abusers women and refugee camps for men and conflict and war zones, unemployed and broke woman, women who are shunned by their families and communities, women, belonging, to minorities with limited rights and privileges, all of which this crime woman and the middle East. Another thing we know is during this global pandemic and the responses, um, to the violence against women to come back. I took a back burner at the beginning of the lockdown courts and legal services, police shelters, and social closed and shut down, and many countries living women subjected to violence or survivors of violence, trended, and a very cruel reality. However, civil society is to sit up and took care of what the formula institutions couldn't today. We meet with two exceptional leaders in this arena to discuss very, this very, uh, important and pressing issue.
Speaker 2 00:03:27 Um, very happy to welcome, uh, Ms. Uh, <inaudible> a lawyer and advocates of human rights and woman empowerment, empowerment who served as her knowledge, uh, um, who served her knowledge and career. Um, and, um, for the past 50 years in Jordan and the region, and has made her sought after experts, um, and the advocacy and campaigning of foreman issues, as well as legal analysis, drafting laws and policy reform and the region and, and Jordan and specific. She's a former minister of culture and former Senate spokesperson for the government. And now as the CEO and consultant of solidarity is global Institute, uh, I'd like to welcome, um, assessment. Um, I'm also very honored to have, uh, dicta aligned with the Shara. Uh, dictorial anode is, um, the director of <inaudible> strategic consultancy, leading political leadership and diversity training programs and Kuwait, and the GCC region, and has held senior consultative and teaching positions and academic government and non-government institutions in the Arabian Gulf and abroad.
Speaker 2 00:04:40 And it was a board member of several academic and non-governmental organizations. She is the chairperson of the very well known campaign abolish one five, three, two, and on our killing legislations. And co-founder of Medallia is a list, a platform to support women running for political office and equate. I'd like to welcome both a landlord and asthma, and I'm very, very, very happy to have you today to talk about. So this is a very important issue. And let me begin by actually asking Ben to, um, uh, both of you, um, when we speak about the surge of numbers, um, often violence against women during COVID, is it real, and it has the numbers really increased during the pandemic, or has it always been that bad? Would you be telling me more about the numbers from your region and the cases that you would like to re tell and this specifically, um, again, has it always been that bad or has covered actually resulted in the surge of the numbers? Um, start at a small
Speaker 3 00:05:52 Again, thank you so much. And it's my pleasure and honor to be with you both. And I think it's a very important topic that needs us to go further, digging more deeper, to understand this phenomena and respond to their needs and to be as realistic as clear about it, because saying it's there, uh, in increasing numbers needs to be approved and saying that, no, no, no, we don't have this also needs to be approved on the ground. Yes. One out of three everywhere in the world is a victim of one kind or another of gender based violence. This was report pandemic. It was the pandemic before pandemic because the victims of gender based violence in numbers. And that's in fact, if we counted, it will be much more, nobody is counting this around the world. So, uh, w women are still, uh, uh, victims are still subject of gender based violence in different forms.
Speaker 3 00:07:05 As our colleague Linode was interested in, in the encouraging woman, political participation, for example, political violence and bullying against the candidates and against woman voters and against against women. Activists is really very clear, which was not physical usually, but it was very hurting and very bad. So there are types of gender based violence. Maybe it's not a physical hurt or side, but sometimes it is more, even worse and bad and to have negative impact for us at SegY from the very beginning of last March in the beginning of the year 2020, we realize that we are receiving much, much Coles, four hour helpline, eh, eh, the organization and through our social media and emails from women suffering from domestic, uh, domestic violence. Absolutely. We received in two months between the middle of March and the mid of may, eh, more than 1000, uh, uh, cases, eh, this 1000 cases we use to receive them in one year.
Speaker 3 00:08:34 So you can see easily the increase of numbers. Of course, I cannot be very naive to say that it's only because the increase of numbers also because of the lack of, uh, services, uh, the, the family department unit was neatly ready to, to receive the other end. Yours was closed. The activists who are serving were not on jobs for a reason or another. So, eh, there are families who use usually out of the, the, the, the, the shelter for them. They leave their home and running to their families. They were not allowed to move, so their families were not around them. So I do believe that there was some increase of course, in, in, uh, in the practice itself in the, in the crimes, uh, violence crimes. But, uh, it is not everything. There are elements, other elements, which push the numbers to be increased in this way as, uh, for us as, as ciggy officially, it was mentioned that the increase in numbers reaches 56%, eh, and maybe this is the average that is more, uh, more, uh, logical to be Frank, despite of this.
Speaker 3 00:10:00 I think having the perpetrators, the violent persons in one place with the families, with the whole number members of the family, with the burden of, of the duties, with the lack of resources, worrying from losing their jobs, their, their financial resources worrying from the pandemic itself and, and the possibility to be effected or infected. And also the feeling that you don't have a place to escape from gender based violence. All of this put a lot of pressure over the, the all members. And it was, uh, Yanni, reflecting, uh, the tense that everybody's feeling in some families, it was more close relations and, uh, and, you know, support each other. In many other families, it was a violent and families were kicked out from their home to sleep in the streets to three fabulous report that we are in the streets. It's, there is no cars, we don't, we, we cannot move and we don't know where to go.
Speaker 3 00:11:11 And it happened in fact, in many, in many situations, of course, being stuck with a violent person also is, is very, very hard to, to do lack of services such as health services, the, the priority was given to the pandemic and they were, they were telling everybody that if you are not in, in a Yani serious case, it's better not to go to any clinic or any hospital. So there was a very complicated situation. And I think this make the harmful impact of the violence even much more than usual, so psychologically and physically as well. So, yes, I think it was increased. The problem is that we were not prepared, uh, previously, eh, to respond to the crisis. We never expected this type of crisis. And even with the refugees, uh, issue and with the victims of, uh, of, uh, uh, you know, uh, Wars and conflict situations were not the same, it was different.
Speaker 3 00:12:27 And I think what we learn now is that we need to be prepared with, on going services. And we need the government to take into consideration women's needs under this pendant. But for example, we were not allowed to move while many other service providers were given license to move. So the society were not, and specifically, eh, social workers and psychologists and legal experts or consultants, we're not allowed to move and to provide services to women, victims of gender based violence. Also the, the access to justice was lacking because courts were closed. I to who she may report, the police were not ready to, to take actions in cases that is in their opinion, not a very, I mean, not an emergency situation, it's not their priority. So we, we, we used to listen, even when we called that there is a woman under danger, you need to move now and to, to, to shelter her somewhere else.
Speaker 3 00:13:41 For example, they may say, well, we are now dealing with a very serious other issue, which is the COVID and at the, uh, the, the, the pandemic. So I think, yes, we suffered from, uh, from all this unhealthy type of relations, eh, the, the, the, the fear and the worrying situation, everybody was living under it, and the stress of, of all the elements of, of the health and economy and, and, uh, and the education of children and all of this. And of course, lack of services that is available on time and in an appropriate way for, for people who are, or persons who are victims of their best violence. Of course, when I say gender based violence, we automatically look to the woman, but also I have to say that there are also violence against disabled persons violence against all that persons violence against the children that also increased.
Speaker 3 00:14:52 And to give you an idea, the, uh, the murders, uh, during the pandemic, they, they look down, they look down situation was, uh, decreased in terms of murders, Yan, but it jumped dramatically immediately after open opening out based on that very tense relation that was happening during the pandemic. And we, we witnessed a jump from seven victims of, uh, what we call it, family that happened during the 2019, it jumped to 20 murders in the same category. And in 2020, and this year we started with, with a very, uh, violence, uh, cases that we witness. But I think, uh, there is a growing awareness and a growing, uh, supporters within the judiciary, within the police, within the, uh, officials, uh, to take measures more tough than before. And also the movement of the civil society. In each time, there is a woman victims of gender-based violence or crime, and sometimes the murder, uh, uh, within the family is now, uh, facing great response by the civil society organizations. Of course, there are others who are attacking and who are using the argument of foreign agenda or, or, you know, interference of the, uh, Western values and groups who are trying to damage the unity of the family and all of this it's normal and usual. But I think the priority is that I to live that I, to be safe and that I have to get the help you lead when you are a victim of gender based violence.
Speaker 2 00:16:53 Um, uh, you said that you said that many of the cases were not even reported. So we only know that the ones that were reported, what about those who are not reported? How were they exposed? Were they exposed by new media, social media? Um, and how did social media play a role, especially for your institution? Um, I've noticed that, um, some institutions have actually benefited from WhatsApp, for example, more than let's say Twitter or other forms of social media.
Speaker 3 00:17:25 Yeah. You know, when you are in the same home, even calling is, is a challenge because she has to call while the person is sitting there all the time. So it's even even difficult. Of course, we use the WhatsApp, we use the, uh, the digital clinic that we have, and they can use the Facebook, the whatever there they can use. But also we sometimes receive reports by neighbors who are, uh, Yani, uh, get to know that there is something happening and we are trying to defeat, but to be Frank, yes, many are even, they make a decision. They don't want to report because they know that maybe the impact of reporting sometimes is even more worse than not reporting. And many of them kept silent because the punishment is light. The process is going to be hard. The choices of human is limited. She don't know where to go, who is going to spend the money for their life, where, where she can live.
Speaker 3 00:18:35 Is the family, had family ready to receive her or not? Is she going to be able to take responsible of herself and her children? Is there a possibility to, to reach her rights through the court procedures under the look down, because there is no courts, women who have already judgements in, in Alemany, for example, we're not able to go and, and receive it, even if they have it. So there, there, there was a lot of challenges that is not necessarily linked with, with COVID. Sometimes it is structurally they're already in the, in a patriarchal society where women are relying on in their life, on others. And that in Jordan, we have the, the lowest percentage of women in the labor market. We have only 14% of women in the age of work in the labor market. And many of them lost their jobs, or their salaries were cut or whatever challenges that everybody knows happened after pandemic.
Speaker 3 00:19:47 So the problem is really rooted in the culture rooted in the lack of equal relation in the society is rooted in the weakness of the institutional, eh, social protection network, despite of being, uh, from the NGO side or from the governmental side, add lack of, uh, of appropriate legislation that, uh, that is taking Ganni all this into consideration. And what is promising is this kind of discussion that we have it with officials sometimes, and with others and the lobbying for a better clause, because we went through this, uh, uh, this campaign of, uh, of, uh, fighting against the honor crimes, uh, light sentences in Jordan. And we were able in 2017 to abolish article three Oh eight, which we campaign against it, the article was allowing the perpetrator rape and sexual crimes to marry the, uh, the victim and go free without any punishment. So we put an end to this, and this article was published to litigation, uh, reasons that was used in case of, uh, of defending the owner or the family, eh, was, it was also amended and it is not anymore accepted. So there are some achievements happen, and it was a result of the NGOs, uh, lobbying and, and activities, but it is not up to the Yami, to the goals that we set for ourselves to see equal laws and appropriate flow laws, uh, dealing with all aspects of gender equality, but in more specific protection for victims of gender, gender based sites.
Speaker 2 00:21:42 Cause it's not only about laws and we'll come back to this, um, uh, in a bit, uh, um, there were many, um, cases of violence against women and Kuwait that surfaced or appeared. And, uh, recently that shook everyone. Um, was this, has this been a pattern or has this been generated by the lockdown? Is COVID responsible? What do you think?
Speaker 4 00:22:10 Um, well, I'd like to start by thanking you for having this difficult conversation with us today and for, uh, hosting and hosting this wonderful woman that we will learn from, uh, said to us months to share this platform with you. Uh, I would say that include, we don't have official numbers, so it's very difficult to, uh, ask team and I'm for support during COVID or not. But we definitely know from our work in the abolishment five, three campaign, and it's not because of the survivors of domestic abuse, reach out to us is not, the numbers have definitely increased during the lockdown. This is something that other aspects have echoed in, um, new speaker, uh, interviews. So, um, it is problematic because we can't really see if this has shifted because, or, uh, it's, uh, an ongoing pattern. And you're talking about the, the cases that made the news in the last year.
Speaker 4 00:23:22 There were, there were, uh, tastes be very upsetting cases of, uh, uh, murders perpetuated against women by their mothers. Uh, and the latest one, uh, was unfortunately a guard at the national assembly. So it was her job to protect our legislators, but, uh, we feel that protecting her. We, I mean, as a community, as a legal framework, as a social framework, and it was really, um, heartbreaking to see that, uh, there, there wasn't a kind of a formal stance that was taken by her colleagues at the national assembly or by the government. Um, but, uh, what we, what we have is certainly that the media is shedding more light on these cases that it used to. And sometimes that is also part of the problem, because the way that the media sometimes handles these cases, uh, is by, um, kind of finding a narrative that makes sense, uh, of, uh, of a brutal act of violence that is irrational.
Speaker 4 00:24:34 Uh, so, uh, recently there was a report with case where, um, murder happened also perpetuated by brother against the sister, but it was reduced to two years to a misdemeanor and just two years, but because it was handed and this is the way that it was reported, uh, it was, it was seen as a disciplinary violence act and sadly quit like Jordan. We have the one five, three article, which is the honor of article. We have the one 82, which is the kidnap and marry that article, which you have successfully abolished the Jordan, but we have yet to, to remove, and we have article 29 about penal code, which allows for what are called disciplinary violence. So a male guardian can discipline a woman or, or even, um, find a substitute. Yeah, there's a, there's a key involved to, to discipline her. Uh, and this, this makes it will slow in and problematic.
Speaker 4 00:25:35 What we have managed to achieve despite COVID is that we have finally passed a domestic violence law in Kuwait. Uh, and, uh, I'm proud to say that the organizations that I am involved in as well as others within creates very, um, active civil society, uh, had a big role to play in pushing this laws through. Uh, and, uh, although it, it didn't kind of deal with everything that we were hoping that it would, it did set a very important precedent because before, uh, this law was passed, uh, we really didn't have any legal cover for helping survivors. We're trying to rehouse them, uh, protecting them from, uh, their, their family members and their abusers, et cetera. But now we do have a legal framework and, and this legal framework should empower the social police who are supposed to be the first kind of, uh, the first responders in these cases.
Speaker 4 00:26:37 But before it was a domestic violence law, uh, they, they were, uh, they were, they were very limited in what they could offer in terms of health. So we are hopeful that there's going to be a national council to look into family protection, and there's going to be a review of the liberals. Uh, that's kind of conflict with the spirit of protecting families from violence. And also that, uh, the, the Tony protection law has within it, a provision that penalizes those who try to, to, um, get, get, uh, uh, victims or survivors of abuse to change their mind or to not report. So, so they, they actually did get penalized. Um, what, what we are still lacking is a sexual harassment law. That's what we're still lacking. Although there, there are some articles that discuss this and deal with it. There's not, there's not a stand alone a lot, and there's, there's a sexual harassment, uh, uh, kind of, uh, phenomenon that's going on.
Speaker 4 00:27:48 And people have a very laissez-faire attitude towards it. Boys will be boys. You know, if somebody is following you, uh, on the streets, if they, if the Capitol you, ah, you know, are, are you sure you were dressed properly? Are you sure you didn't incite it? So there's this some blaming narrative that goes on and how the media portrays it, you know, and, and when, when things escalate and they become reported crimes, then you find that this, this message, uh, within the reporting that says, ah, but despite the fact that the woman was dressed in a modest way, she still got her. I mean, these, these messages need also to be rehabilitated. It's not enough that we, we change, uh, legislations and that we force an open conversation about this community to change the way that the media reports, these things and the way that we allow conversations to happen.
Speaker 4 00:28:48 And sometimes online is a blessing because for us, uh, we, we could do a litmus test. We could, we could see where the appetite was. Uh, we could, um, you know, find out what others were doing. And, and I'm proud to say that, uh, abolish and, and ether learnt a lot from those who came before us, especially in Jordan and especially in Lebanon. Uh, but at the same time, it's an area that's fraught with the risk for a woman. And it doesn't matter if you're an academic or an activist you're or, or a politician. And, you know, I love a subtle smell that you spoke about political bullying, because we'd would always list. We try to support women running for elected office, and we try to provide a safe space for a very different kind of narrative that's going on in mainstream media. Uh, and we, we, we see, and we hear from these brave women, how much trawling and abuse they are subjected to.
Speaker 4 00:29:50 I I've been subjected to it because I speak about issues that are, that are, you know, that are sensitive to some and go against that patriarchal thread. I'm sure both you and Dr. Amyl have been subjected to it. And sometimes it's just the burden of, of, uh, stereotypical ambassadorship. Sometimes it can be as simple as well, the way you look doesn't represent, uh, an Arab woman or a Muslim woman. So I'm going to discount everything that you've said. And like you've said, you know, this is, uh, I think tired accusation of a Western agenda or, or being motivated by having studied in the West, whereas our best economist and doctors and engineers and lawyers, and they will have been educated in the West end. It doesn't seem to, yeah, it doesn't seem to detract from their credentials. It adds to it. But you know, when you do, when you have a feminist agenda and when you have a humanist agenda, then it becomes problematic.
Speaker 2 00:30:52 Absolutely. You speak about online, um, venues as a blessing, but, you know, the, the increase in violence against women, uh, was also marriage online. Um, there wasn't online violence as well. Um, why would, why would you think that happened and how do, um, or did you deal with it if it happened in your case landlords?
Speaker 4 00:31:15 Oh, um, well, you know, um, every time, uh, we bring up the subject of honor killings and we speak about, uh, the, the concept of honor being, uh, a very, uh, plastic one, right? So it, it can be specified in the law that, uh, an act of adultery needs to have happened for it to be considered an honor killing. But the, the girls that you spoke about the women that were murdered in, in hospitals and in their work and in their beds, in their homes where they're supposed to feel safe, they were murdered in the name of, but that honor, uh, w wasn't related to their acts, they didn't do anything that would, that would be considered a sexually deviant. For example, they chose to marry outside of the tribe, or they chose to work in fields that weren't accepted, or they chose to dress in a way that was, uh, deemed unacceptable, uh, to their families, et cetera.
Speaker 4 00:32:17 So, so, uh, this idea of of honor is problematic because people can define it in, in these loose, loose terms. And so when, when we, when we say that there is no justification for murder, there is no justification for murder. There is no justification for murder. You'd be surprised by how many would challenge that and say, no, there are justifications for a murder. A man's honor is more important, uh, than that, of the mix alive, basically. And, and the way to, to regain that honor is by killing her. And this is a force on Islamic it's inhumane, it's against the constitution and all international agreements that were ratified by our countries, but you can see that there's kind of hesitancy when it gets too challenging. This idea of honor, uh, and it's gets reflected online. We, we, um, we were accused of, you know, trying to, um, uh, morally corrupt, uh, people by, by going after the honor killing law.
Speaker 4 00:33:31 Uh, and, uh, it was, it was framed as maybe we weren't aware, and if we were, we were corrupting, but we weren't aware of our corruptive influence. And so our response to that was also online. Our response to that was who needs an honor killing article, who is this person who thinks that in the future, their family might misbehave and they might just need to kill them. Who is this person? So, so we need people to stand up and say, yes, I think we might need it in future. And I think that is more dishonorable, uh, than, than, uh, trying to get rid of an honor killing, uh, uh, article. Uh, and I, I think it's, uh, it's an important conversation to have. Why do people think they need it?
Speaker 2 00:34:20 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, this is the first time I, uh, I hear an argument that takes us to that question. Yes. Who needs such an article? You're absolutely right. Um, I have, um, um, another question for both of you, um, um, regarding your work and within your entities and how you manage to address the needs of women with compounded vulnerability. So let's speak about, for example, domestic migrant workers that, um, um, to, to address their problems during COVID, for example, it needed, um, you to look at different types of flaws, like labor law, for example. So, uh, have you dealt with such things because, you know, when we help a woman, we help women. Uh, but there are specific women that are more, more vulnerable than others, for example, domestic migrant workers. And if we speak about women with disabilities as well, did you have a specific, um, uh, responses to those two, uh, groups, uh, shall we, um, uh, absolutely. I, as I said, there are complexity in, in, in what type of gender based virus, when you have more than
Speaker 3 00:35:38 One reason why you are discriminated against. So you are a woman, you are maybe disabled and you are refugee, or you are a woman, you are a foreigner, you are a domestic worker. You are, uh, you are young sometimes, eh, and, and you are beautiful, maybe. So all of this will create different types of, of, uh, of, uh, violence and of discrimination. And of course, each group needs a specific response. We have a Tiggy, we have a specialized person with different groups, and we have one practice that I think is useful. We have coalitions that are members of coalitions. Uh, those coalitions are interested in specific work. For example, we have, and we give a woman named to each coalition. For example, we have the coalition for the older woman, woman's rights, this coalition called <inaudible> and the group here are very much interested in rights and, and complaints and the needs of, of all the women.
Speaker 3 00:36:53 We have new zoo, which is for, uh, the fighting against the elderly and forced marriages. So there, the new food network is also a group of people from around the country, from different governance, local communities, CBRS, those who are interested as this topic as their own priority. So they work on it and they respond to the needs and they report, and they have their trainings on specific topics related to the group. Also, there are the other coalitions, for example, we have, for this woman, we have a program, we call it AI. AI is a woman who was physically disabled, and she passed away in her twenties, but she was very active to, uh, to fight for, uh, for disabled women and men. But she focused on women to access, uh, different places. And she was mapping the restaurants and the hotels and the markets supermarkets and whatever other public services, where they are ready to, to welcome, uh, this group of people.
Speaker 3 00:38:10 So those groups are specialized groups, and they have members all around the country. SegY is trying to do work to provide the platform and to coordinate with them. And in many cases, we encourage initiatives that is happening and buy them to do something specific for this, those people also in the country that are organizations who are specialized in called exempted domestic workers. The group we have <inaudible>, which is an NGO focusing more specifically on foreign migrant workers and domestic workers in specific. So we have the coordination and the referral system where we try to use the expertise and the specialization of different groups. When we meet a case that we feel it needs a specific, uh, kind of services at this point. So there is this dynamics that is, that is available. Of course, we have the national committee for the trafficking in persons. And this is a committee that is dealing with, if there is a domestic worker who is really exploited in a way, or victims of a, some kind of new forms of slavery that is happening.
Speaker 3 00:39:28 Sometimes we try to use these mechanisms. So there are this mapping issue that we need to have it, and to make sure that we are using all the possible means and resources that are available, technical or financial or human, eh, or even legal, because sometimes something you cannot do other scandals for the victims. So we, we use that and we are trying to build a more and more strongly federal system on the national level, because we have some initiatives, but it is still not working effectively the way we think it should. So we have to work more to include civil society with the official entities, judiciary entities that that is police. For example, we have you call it social police police. I like it. We have family protection department within the police, uh, that they are playing a good role, but it is not also enough.
Speaker 3 00:40:34 And sometimes it's the personnel who are saving. So working with them is very important because if you have a person who don't believe in gender equality, but occupying a position, uh, that is not going to work without a person who is sensitive to these issues is a problem. Sometimes, especially when you have the rotation between employees, you trained, somebody worked with them for a while, become very aware about the topic and the issue and, and the technical parts of it to be fair for women and men equally, then they move them to another place and bring new ones that you have to start from the zero prep point again. So until this is a institutional culture and values that is integrated and enforced in fact, to be respected by every personnel in, in the, in the different, uh, you know, uh, entities, uh, we will, we will see this ups and downs in dealing with the issues.
Speaker 3 00:41:40 So you cannot count on the institution, but the persons in these institutions, how they think and what they can do. Yeah. But I agree, we do that. Uh, also we have a program for, uh, uh, for, we call it selamat cinema is the, uh, the digital safety and, and security and digital security during pandemic became a very important topic as everybody have to use the, the social, uh, means that the digital means in communication and education in work and in everything. So we have, uh, a digital clinic, we support technical support to those who are hacker hacked by somebody who are victims of, uh, of, uh, you know, different types of crimes. Some of them is sexual harassment. Some of them is, is, is bullying. Some of them is a disaster. Um, yeah, black male. Yeah. And, uh, and, uh, other other types Yanni, uh, of, of, uh, of crimes.
Speaker 3 00:42:52 So we, we provide them with technical support to avoid the problem and to follow, eh, uh, safety measures in, in creating accounts and dealing with these accounts. And of course we have some cases take some cases to court when there is a crime, any crime that we need to follow for law. Eh, eh, we have many cases that, that are in, in, in courts now two or three of them, we were able to get some good judgements against the perpetrators. So, yes, uh, I think our work is if we look at it, it has to be, um, uh, comprehensive than one NGO can meet. And we need this very strong kind of, eh, of coordination between different entities to be able to provide a comprehensive service that can really provide added protection, which is sometimes not there, even with the laws, we have the family protection law, exactly like, like yours.
Speaker 3 00:44:00 It is not up to the, the host, uh, but it is a start that we need to, to build on it and to use it to the maximum, I think, and to exchange these experiences. I was listening and saying that, well, we need to invite that. I know who to invite our, uh, uh, Yanni partners here too, to more public speeches, because talking about the topics from different communities, different societies, different experiences in the region is very important because I, I believe I see that what the Linode was saying is exactly what we are, we are facing Yani. And I think we are learning from each other and we are together more strong.
Speaker 2 00:44:49 Definitely, definitely. We make the argument that, um, the commonalities across, um, uh, societies, not just in the middle East, but even beyond the middle East are very, you know, big, huge. Um, so let alone the commonalities between us, um, and the middle East Atlanta, what to, what do you do for a woman with compounded, um, vulnerabilities
Speaker 4 00:45:20 I'm, uh, uh, you know, it's really interesting, uh, you know, we're now in the age of, uh, cross sectional feminism, and, uh, when you speak about compounded vulnerabilities, it's cross-sectional activism, right? Uh, for example, uh, domestic workers are naturally very vulnerable for the, the, the reasons that's, that's my stated, but inquiry, there is a shelter for them. There's a governmental shelter for them, for, uh, the national woman or even experts who are not domestic workers. There's no shaft. The government has yet to open a shelter for them. So there is literally nowhere for them to go. Uh, the, the people who oversee the domestic workers shelter often call us and say, uh, a Kuwaiti woman or a stateless woman, or a, uh, uh, a non national isn't a part of the domestic workers is here with children without children, please come help us deal with.
Speaker 4 00:46:25 So, uh, so there that, uh, and then there is kind of the, the, the idea that, uh, women who've come from tribes and strong tribe, they are in a somewhat double bind because, uh, the idea of tribal honor is a very strong one as well. So, uh, they can be very vulnerable, uh, despite the, you know, the status that this belonging gives them. And, and it's usually very tricky for us to get involved because those tend to be the most dangerous, uh, um, cases to get involved in because you're not dealing with an individual you're dealing with many, uh, and, and they, they have this kind of intrinsic sense of tribal honor, uh, that, that, uh, that is very much intertwined with the female and the females body and the females choices. Uh, and, uh, uh, it's frustrating for me that sometimes we get, uh, you know, when these cases that you spoke about came up and the ones that come up are often tribal woman.
Speaker 4 00:47:35 And, and sometimes we get a reaction that this is, uh, something to be dealt with internally within the tribal community, uh, us being, uh, urban woman, you should not get involved because you do not understand this. And I understand that violence is a great equalizer. Death is a great equalizer. If women are being killed, I need to be involved. Uh, and, uh, you know, it, it, uh, it also is across the board, uh, that, uh, uh, there is economic value support. So we had a case of a young lady with disability who was taken out of the university, who was abused by her family. And she gets a stipend, a disability stipend from the government, and they, they wanted to control that stipend. Then we see this play out at the sadly a lot that the reasons underpinning violence are awful, uh, economic, uh, or financial, you know, that it is not just wanting to control the woman's body and choices.
Speaker 4 00:48:44 They want to control her income stream. And as, as more women enter the labor market, as more women become financially independent, therefore, socially, politically independent, this, this comes up more often than not as a problematic issue. And you'd be surprised that women from let's say more privileged, well backgrounds who are exposed to violence. They are sometimes in the most vulnerable position, because there's so much at stake that they cannot even speak about it. They cannot even estimate to the violence that's being, um, you know, inactive towards them by their spouses or by their family members, et cetera, where, because they have so much to lose terms. Uh, and so, uh, yeah, I think it is complicated and compounded wherever you are spectrum. Uh, I don't think that anyone deals with, with violence can see it as a straightforward or, or a simple equation. And I, that a very important part is also dealing with a perpetrator because you can't just, you know, we'll deal with the abuse survivor and forget the perpetrator. The perpetrator needs a rehabilitation as well. It's a complete package. And, uh, they are usually, uh, survivors of abuse themselves. So I sometimes worry about the positioning because we are so worried about the, the abuse survivors as we should be, because some of them, you know, their, their lives are being threatened, uh, that we, we forget that there is another component that needs our attention and needs our help and needs our compassion, despite the fact that they may be behaving in a way that is very, uh, difficult to simplifies.
Speaker 2 00:50:43 Yes. I agree with you. Um, I will list some, get fixated on laws, realistic, uh, talk about, um, the cultural revolution basically, um, uh, within our societies. It's not just the laws and legislations, right? Um, it's the norms, the social norms, um, um, um, the way we indoctrinate, um, um, uh, those patriarchal norms into the generations and generations of boys and girls, um, uh, uh, useful. Um, um, so the USMA about, um, crisis management and the need of gender specific responses for crisis management. And I think this is a very nice topic for a, uh, research, uh, has, um, any of our countries even thought about gender specific, uh, responses and the crisis management since the revolutions till COVID 19? Um, I doubt I really doubt because everywhere I know there was a hotline. If you, you think you have covered, um, some countries didn't even have hotlines for, um, the domestic abuse or domestic violence.
Speaker 2 00:51:58 Um, uh, we come to the end of the session. Um, and, but this is not an end of the conversation. This is only the beginning of the conversation, uh, feminists, um, the woman rights advocates, civil society. I won't stay silent. Um, I think this is our chance now to use everything we've got, um, social media online venues have been heightened and highlights and, uh, during COVID 19, and we've seen how online can really play a huge role in our activism, um, and we will embrace it and we will be using it, uh, whether, you know, we're subjected to, uh, online violence or not, we will be dealing with that. And we will be reporting that, and we will be talking to our governments, our society, uh, boys, girls, um, uh, adults, men, and women, um, and educating them through different forums and venues. Uh, but we will fight back that's.
Speaker 2 00:52:58 We are key institutions, uh, outdated structures. Um, and this is only the beginning of the conversation. Uh <inaudible> thank you so much. And there is a lot to be learned from a, your experience and from what Jordan has been doing and, uh, feminists and Jordan have been doing. Um, and, uh, I really hope, uh, you know, that's, this, we go back to a sense of normality where we can connect. Um, I personally have students who would really benefit from interning, uh, for you, uh, as usual having a conversation with you just takes me up to the moon. Um, it's, it's lovely. It's lovely. Right. And, and again, I always say that
Speaker 3 00:53:46 I'm jealous of you. Thank you so much for this very wonderful discussion. So really I hope that we would meet again and we will continue. Definitely, definitely.
Speaker 2 00:54:04 I end this episode with a wish that you all stay safe and well take care and write to me <inaudible>.
