Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to Women of the Middle east podcast, Women of the Middle east. This podcast relates the realities of arab women and their rich and diverse experiences. It aims to present the multiplicity of their voices and wishes to break overdue cultural stereotypes about women of the Middle east. My name is Amel Malki. I'm a feminist scholar and educator. This is women of the Middle East.
Linda Sartor, one of the most important political and social activists in the United States, a hybrid palestinian American. Add to this a muslim woman hunting the hijab, a feminist, an activist for social justice. First of all, I'm so happy to have you.
[00:00:48] Speaker B: I'm so honored to be here, Emma.
[00:00:50] Speaker A: Linda, your multifaceted identity is at the heart of your activism, and I bet is a core reason behind it. The combined effect of otherness of being arab and Muslim are used, of course, to conjure up all colonial and orientalistic rhetorics that we've learned about and we've lived through. And of course, it's about the Arab, the barbaric, the uncivilized, the dangerous other. And we know that the colonial narrative is so entrenched in the popular memory of the so called global north or west. And at the same time, unfortunately, as an educator, I would say it was systematically fed to us through education, globalized media, cultural production. And so how was it for you growing up in that context?
[00:01:40] Speaker B: I had a very wonderful experience, actually, growing up in the United States. I'm born and raised in New York City, which is one of the most diverse cities in the entire world. So I grew up, actually in a community that was mostly immigrants and children of immigrants. So my parents are palestinian immigrants. I grew up with yemeni immigrants, south asian immigrants, latino immigrants, mostly from Central America. So I grew up a little isolated in a world that I believed was wonderful. I believed people were diverse. We shared a lot of cultural trends between even people from different cultures. So I went to school as my parents. They named me Linda, which is not a name that is easily identifiable as Arab or as Muslim. So I generally had an easy life, I believed, growing up. It wasn't until the horrific attacks of 911 I was wearing hijab at that time, and I was a university student. And that's when I, for the first time, really felt what otherness meant, what it felt like, that our entire country turned their backs on us as Muslim Americans. And that was when I realized that I was different, that I was being marginalized by the rest of american society for something that our community had nothing to do with. We were just as horrified by the attacks as anybody else in our community and as when New York felt it the most, because it happened in New York City. And that was the first time that I heard people in my community say, maybe we don't wear hijab now. Maybe we take it off just temporarily out of safety for our community. And I was one of the people in my community that said, no, I'm not going to do that. I'm not taking my hijab off. I don't care how dangerous, what the consequences are. I wasn't going to change who I was because of something that had absolutely nothing to do with me. So that was my first account of feeling different than others.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: I want to talk about your palestinian identity. But again, Muslims and Arabs living in the west have always said that they had to disguise their identity, their culture, because this is a context where their identity and culture was dehumanized as well. They were facing the dilemma of either embracing some of their culture and dismissing other components of their culture or cultural practices, or I ignoring their cultural practices. You chose to wear the hijab. Tell me about this decision. What were the consequences of it?
[00:03:58] Speaker B: There were many people in the United States. That depends on where you live. In the United States, there are some Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, who live in predominantly white neighborhoods or white towns, like in the midwest or in the south of the United States, who, for example, your parents named you Muhammad, but now you want people to call you Mo or even Mike. There's a lot of people who are named Muhammad, but they're known in the community as Mike. If your name is Nidal, people call you Nick. There's a lot of these kind of people trying to blend in, to assimilate, just move on, move along, whether it be in their education and their schooling and their work. For me, I was born a Palestinian, and I think there's something particularly special about palestinian people. We grew up with this very nationalistic identity. My parents weren't very muslim in the sense that they weren't very conservative, but they were very connected to their palestinian identity. So we grew up understanding the cause. We understood what it means to be palestinian. Our parents told us that we had a responsibility, a great responsibility as Palestinians in the diaspora to continue this legacy of the palestinian identity, because every day there were forces working to erase and eliminate our community. So palestinian children, particularly in comparison to other arab american children who are from other backgrounds, we were very palestinian. We knew we were palestinian. And in fact, when people asked us where we were from, we would not say Brooklyn, New York, which is where I'm born and raised, we would immediately say we were from Palestine, even though we were not born there. And so for me, when the time came for someone to say to me, take your hijab off. Eliminate this piece of your identity. It took me back to what my parents taught me about being palestinian, that there were people working to eliminate my people. And at this moment, I rejected this idea that in order for me to be safe in the free world, in the west, in the United States of America, the land of freedom and democracy, that it required for me to take off my hijab, I rejected that premise. And, of course, there's consequences, as there has been for the last 22 years. It never ended this constant, particularly attacks against muslim american women who are easily identifiable as muslim. As a muslim american woman activist, I have been under attack by many opposing forces, white supremacists, right wing Zionists. I am a very easy target not only for being a muslim american woman in hijab, but also one who's palestinian and is very vocal about the palestinian cause, and also one who's an activist and an organizer in many other. I work in the racial justice, economic justice spaces. I work around immigration and immigrant rights and refugee rights in the states. And I've been very effective as an organizer. And people who oppose my values and oppose my identities, they have worked very hard against the work that I have done, the work of the movements that I'm a part of. And there's been grave consequences, as people sometimes believe that if you're an activist in the United States, you're very lucky because you live in a democracy, you are able to engage in free speech. And while I do and am able to engage in free speech, the consequences have been great. There's been death threats to my life. I have had security in particular places that I go because of the lack of safety. The Internet is not a very friendly place for people like me. The kind of right wing media has particularly worked to defame muslim american leaders in the United States, others connecting us to and making affiliations that actually do not exist. And so the consequences are great, but they have been worth it, at least for me. Alhamdulillah. We have seen an increase in solidarity with the palestinian people across the world, including here in the United States of America. We have seen people stand up for the rights of Muslim and Muslim Americans and refugees because of the work that we have done, the relationships that we have built with other communities. So the consequences are great, but again, they're worth it.
[00:07:56] Speaker A: I believe in the power of hybrids. Hybrids are global mediators who are able to fight the right fight, but from within, who are products of western education, in your case, also inheritors of islamic spirituality, wisdom, arabic knowledge. Your role is so crucial to deconstruct the colonial narrative and reconstruct a new narrative. And this is exactly what you have been doing. And this is powerful, extremely powerful. And from where I stand now, I see this happening through your work. Can you give me a summary of what you've been doing in the states in relation to the genocide that's being committed now in Gaza?
[00:08:33] Speaker B: It's been a devastating time, Emily. And I know you know that as a fellow Arab, it's been. People have to remember that we are palestinian and these are our people. So we're nothing, just fighting a cause. Our community would step up and defend the Uyghurs in China. We'll defend the Rohingya Muslims. We will defend people across the world who are in any sort of oppression. But now we are people who are having to defend our own people. And so in the United States, we have made a great progress, although the genocide continues. Building power and building solidarity. We have been advocating with members of Congress to call for ceasefire. Local city councils and towns across the United States have called for ceasefire. We have had major mobilizations, including every single day in the United States. There are people outside in the streets, particularly in some of the larger cities, upwards from 50,000 to 100,000 people just coming outside in ways we have never seen before. We have seen even the media who went from the dehumanization of the palestinian people to parroting the talking points of the israeli government to now finally having to be forced into reporting the truth. That's been something that I believe only happened because of the accountability that is being forced upon them by the general public. We have seen the 80% in many polls, 80% of Democrats in the United States support ceasefire. 66% of Americans in general support ceasefire. So it is very daunting to see that the government is not listening to the american people. The american people want to see an end to this genocide. We have also seen, again the relationships, the strengthening of relationships between black preachers and black faith leaders, with muslim faith leaders and christian faith leaders coming together again demanding a ceasefire. So it's been beautiful to see the power that we're building, shifting the narrative to be a more pro Palestine narrative. More people are willing to call Israel an apartheid state, which is not something we were hearing on this level before. I think people inherently are good, Emil. I know that. I know people are good people. And no one likes to see children being slaughtered. Nobody wants the United States. Our citizens are saying, why do our taxpayer dollars have to pay for this? I think one of the things that makes the United States particularly important is that we fund this. This is all happening on the dime of the american people. And so we have an election coming up in 2024. And I truly believe that the world is watching us. And I hope that we are going to send a strong message that the United States of America, at least the people of the US, stand against genocide.
[00:11:07] Speaker A: I really hope so. It's a long term commitment. We're talking about changing the whole narrative from anti semitism to anti Zionism. Political correctness have been used to oppress the oppressed, basically. And I think this is what you are doing on the long term. Also, what I've noticed is how we have started doing it right. We're embedding this quest for freeing Palestine within that context of occupation and placing it within the right historical context. People didn't know. And thank God for social media. Thank God for the people on the ground reporting back on what is happening. This is something new in our age. But at the same time, we have people like you who could educate others within their communities about history and people didn't know.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: The truth of the matter is, Emer, that in the United States of America, in our public education system, people don't learn about Palestine. That is not part of the curriculum. It's for. I know it's for intentional reasons, because if you learn about the history of occupation, the history of the Nekbeh, you understand what the Palestinians have endured for the last 75 years. You would inherently be on the right side. It's a very clear story. It is not complex, but it's not part of the american curriculum. And in order for you to learn about it, you have to seek it out. In university, there are Middle eastern studies and others, but you have to want to study that. So it's not something natural in the american curriculum when people do learn about it. And I think what's important now is we have something to compare it to. We have watched the hypocrisy of the United States government when it comes to the Ukraine and Russia. They talk about the illegal russian occupation, the illegal russian invasion. We have given billions of dollars to the Ukraine to fight for their own self determination, to fight to defend their land. So now the american people who are learning about Palestine are saying to themselves, what's the difference here, if the palestinian people want to defend their land, they are fighting an occupation. They are fighting land invasion. What's the difference? And the difference is, as you said earlier, the orientalist stereotypes that the arab people, the palestinian people, we are savage. We are ungovernable. We cannot govern ourselves. It's not the same. We are terrorists. They are the victims. And that narrative has been going on for 75 years. So we're breaking 75 years worth of propaganda. I tell people when I'm sharing about what's happening is that we know, Emma, there's been a lot of atrocities in this world for many decades, many hundreds of years, including Darfur, Rwanda, the cambodian genocide, Bosnia, the Holocaust. These are all things that have happened and all things that are horrific. What I say to people now, the difference is you could say you didn't know much about the cambodian genocide or what happened in Asna. You didn't know much about. You knew something bad was happening in Darfur, but you weren't exactly sure. This is a time where you cannot say you did not know. And that is the power of social media and our photojournalists, who are frontline from Gazi on the ground. And what has made this so powerful is that you don't need western media. You have unfiltered direct access to the trauma, the pain and the bloodshed of the palestinian people, which has been extremely powerful for us and really has in so many ways defeated israeli government propaganda in ways we have never seen before. They cannot compete with the truth. They cannot compete with these unfiltered videos. And as we're, like you said, as we're organizing and we're mobilizing and putting this in context and saying, this is 75 years talking about what it means to live in Gaza for 17 years under a siege, what it means to live under an occupation. People tell me, for example, doesn't the Palestinian Authority, aren't they the ones governing the West bank? And I say the Palestinian Authority requires a permit from the israeli government if they want to take the israeli government to the ICC. And they were denied permits two years ago. Travel permits. What kind of government requires the permits of another government? So there really is a facade that the West bank is governed by the Palestinian Authority when mostly every document that you need has to be given to you by the israeli government. The checkpoints are still as run by the israeli government. The people of the West bank, many of whom cannot even go to somewhere like Jerusalem to pray in a city that is only 15 minutes away from many that live in the West bank. So when I explain this to people, they're beyond, I say, listen, the Palestinians do not have any control over any of their borders, including in Gaza, that no longer has, quote, israeli troops on the inside, as the israeli government has explained. So when you explain this to people, we don't have an airport in Gaza. We do not have control over our borders. We cannot bring in aid without the approval of the israeli government. People cannot easily travel to vacation in the north african region or in any region, really, without permission from the israeli government. People say, wait a minute. This is outrageous. And so that education has been extremely helpful for us as we have been continuing this quest for the palestinian people.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: You are a huge powerhouse when it comes to a feminist from the Middle east.
And I just would love to see more of you, whether it's on social media. I would love to see you connecting with women, feminists and women organization all through the MENA region.
[00:16:34] Speaker B: I would love to do that. The thing about me, Emil, is that I know how to use social media. And I have a pretty big following on social media. But I'm also an organizer, like some people become, which is very important, because we need spokespersons and we need women that are taking, filling up the space online. But I also am, as you can see, strategy. And I'm doing meetings. I'm organizing and advocating in Congress. I actually was arrested on to this past week advocating against a Senate bill there, a bill where the United States government wants to give Israel another $14.8 billion during a genocide, knowing that the israeli government will use those resources for more tank shells, more fighter jets, more weapons against the palestinian people. So one of the things I feel is my responsibility also is to hold feminist organizations in America accountable. You cannot claim to stand up for women and the rights of women if you are not also standing up for the rights of palestinian women. For example, there are over 50,000 pregnant women right now in Palestine. In Gazda, specifically, where are the reproductive rights organization, the organizations that are advocating for prenatal care for these pregnant women? Where are you? And that's something that we've been doing. We've had some organizations come out in support of ceasefire, in support of access to healthcare for women in Ghazdeh, because you cannot be a feminist if you are not standing up for the rights of all women all over the world. And I think what's important about arab american women specifically is that we shattered stereotypes. When people see us kating, when they see us outside, when they see our voices loud and consistent, they are almost shocked to see that, not understanding that, in fact, arab american women and arab women in the MENA region, we have always been vocal. We have always had women champions from our own communities. But again, they see us as docile, as oppressed as we don't have a voice. And so when they see people like us, instead of embracing us as who we truly are as a people, they immediately say, she's an anomaly. She's only one of very few in her community. But Alhamdulillah. In the United States, we have many arab women. Hijab, not hijab people, North Africa, from all of the middle eastern countries, mostly, who are professors and leading in academia. They are authors, they are spokespeople, they are researchers. They are on the front lines. They are physicians. They are every sector. You will find muslim american women in the states that are incredible and are building power and building influence.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I think it's about time for us to educate the world, eradicate this myth that a muslim woman needs saving, because we definitely are agents of our own destiny, and we have a voice and we are using it. Definitely. Linda, it's been a pleasure talking to you.
[00:19:25] Speaker B: It's been an absolute honor, Emil, to meet you. And inshallah, one day we'll meet in person.
[00:19:29] Speaker A: This is Women of the Middle east. Thank you for listening and watching. To stay up to date with Women of the Middle east podcast, you can subscribe and don't forget to rate us. If you would like to contact me directly, you can do so on Instagram or via email.
